Solvent Trap business gets ATF raid

[Kain]

Christ we are no better than the left. From my understanding, we don't know dick other than he was raided and computers seized and he is a solvent trap manufacturer? Am I more or less correct here? Whatever happened to innocent till proven guilty here? Or the fact we don't have all the facts. Shady/grey/gray/don't know does not illegal make from what I remember unless there is more here that no one had read me in on. If he actually broke the law, then that is something we can deal with. But, until proof is shown, or he admits wrong doing I am not throwing stones, especially not since I have seen more than a few of those whoa re supposed to enforce the laws refusing to abide by the rules as it were.

My concern honestly is whether or not someone in the BATFE is trying to see what they can get away with, seeing if they can get over on someone manufacturing parts that "COULD" be used to make an unregistered NFA item to then possibly go after other manufacturers who make other parts that "COULD" be used to make unregistered NFA items. If I need to spell that out, I will, but since we already had one say not to give asshats ideas, I won't anymore than needed. A ban, through removing those willing to sell the items on threat of prosecution if you will. Until they I am assuming the man did no wrong other than making a living until proven otherwise.

[st381183]

Christ we are no better than the left. From my understanding, we don't know dick other than he was raided and computers seized and he is a solvent trap manufacturer? Am I more or less correct here? Whatever happened to innocent till proven guilty here? Or the fact we don't have all the facts. Shady/grey/gray/don't know does not illegal make from what I remember unless there is more here that no one had read me in on. If he actually broke the law, then that is something we can deal with. But, until proof is shown, or he admits wrong doing I am not throwing stones, especially not since I have seen more than a few of those whoa re supposed to enforce the laws refusing to abide by the rules as it were.

Uh.....it's a discussion board and we are discussing the topic.

[MegademiC]

Silencers are illegal? Imagine my surprise when I learned that!!!

Oh you mean silencers that the government didn't get to tax are illegal. Hmm....encouraged them to create an object that is legal, so long as the government gets it's $200? Ok. I fine the user to pay $200 to the government.

This is what kills me. Drive a car without registration, go get one asap. Have a silencer without tax. Jail, 10 years. People kill people and get less. I'm all for following laws, but no, I don't support bullshit like that.

Oh, and even if someone says something, you don't know intent. Some of the posts here are .... depressing.

What I see is, "I payed, someone might not and that's not fair so I hope they burn." Same with the sig brace, people wanted nothing more than for them to be banned, because shouldering them wasn't fair when they paid $200 to shoulder theirs.

[JoshNC]

Nevermind.

[JC5188]

But what if intent was established? According to the back story, he was on Facebook pretty much telling people how to "use" a solvent trap. He put himself on the radar. The filter part is another in a long list of Strawmen in this thread. As a juror you swear to uphold the law, not look for ways to hang the jury because you don't believe what he did was or was not a crime. A re-read of your second signature line is in order. Where does it end? You find yourself on a jury. Guy killed someone you feel was worthy of being killed so you say, "We have absolutely no way to discern his intent." But if he killed someone you feel unworthy, you sit in the box and practice tying a hangman's noose?

There also seems to be confusion between liberty and anarchy going on in this thread.

I'll assume the oil filter comment was for me...

My point was, I don't understand how an oil filter is a "silencer", until that point that it's being USED as a silencer.

My car will do 160mph, yet I've never had a speeding ticket...


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[JC5188]

Sorry, silencers that the government didn't give you permission to make or possess because you didn't pass a background check or pay $200 are illegal and you will go to prison if the government catches and convicts you. Go to the ballot box and change the law if you don't like it.

You may not like that but that is the sad truth of the world we live in. I don't like it either. I'm not arguing the ethicacy of the law just the fact that the gov'ment's gonna get ya if you don't obey the law. If you are willing to take that chance than god speed to you, I am not willing to take that chance.

Why am I a bad person because I follow the rules to possess NFA items? It's not hard to do. I would prefer to not pay $200 but until the laws change I'd rather pay the tax and have the item than be morally superior and not have it.

Everyone wants NFA regs gone but until then when the government says no then no it is. Usually the ATF sends a cease and desist letter to those offending them much like Dead Air received regarding the sale of wipes. Guess what, Dead Air stopped selling wipes. They didn't start a revolution, they didnt continue to sell wipes as a middle finger to the man, they decided stay in business and not go to jail. Pretty good decision on their part.

You said earlier to "feel free to challenge these laws"

Shivan has just (hypothetically) chosen to do so from the jury box.




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[st381183]

You said earlier to "feel free to challenge these laws"

Shivan has just (hypothetically) chosen to do so from the jury box.




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You assume jurors can't be held in contempt for failing to do their job without preconceived decisions. More power to him.

Of course juries are made up of people not smart enough to get out of jury duty so he should be able to steer the jury toward aquittal, if he is chosen of course, and isn't smart enough to get out of jury duty.....

[SHIVAN]

Sorry, silencers that the government didn't give you permission to make or possess because you didn't pass a background check or pay $200 are illegal and you will go to prison if the government catches and convicts you.

They're still not technically illegal. The government itemizes them as contraband, but they are perfectly legal items that could be sold again without having to change them in any way. It's not like it's a stolen F-16 someone has in their personal hangar, or an M1 Abrams tank.

A good jurist would recognize this in the next silencer case, and sentence the defendant to pay the $200 tax, and submit a form 4. It would literally be the 180º polar opposite of how the laws were established, and for exactly the polar opposite reasons.

Judge: Mr. ATF lawyer, why is this man here?

ATF Lawyer: He did not pay his tax, therefore this item is contraband, and he may not possess it.

Judge: So if he paid the tax, he would have been able to possess it?

ATF Lawyer: Yes, as long as he passed an FBI background check.

Judge: He will pay the $200 now, and submit the proper paperwork.

ATF Lawyer: But, but, but, but......

Judge: Why would a citizen need to pay the government a tax on what amounts to a lawnmower muffler? Which muffles the sound to make communities surrounding shooting ranges more pleasant, and that could reduce hearing loss in shooters and hunters?

ATF Lawyer: We will appeal.

Judge: By that time, the defendant should have completed his court mandated paperwork, and paid his $200 tax.

[st381183]

They're still not technically illegal. The government itemizes them as contraband, but they are perfectly legal items that could be sold again without having to change them in any way. It's not like it's a stolen F-16 someone has in their personal hangar, or an M1 Abrams tank.

A good jurist would recognize this in the next silencer case, and sentence the defendant to pay the $200 tax, and submit a form 4. It would literally be the 180º polar opposite of how the laws were established, and for exactly the polar opposite reasons.

Judge: Mr. ATF lawyer, why is this man here?

ATF Lawyer: He did not pay his tax, therefore this item is contraband, and he may not possess it.

Judge: So if he paid the tax, he would have been able to possess it?

ATF Lawyer: Yes, as long as he passed an FBI background check.

Judge: He will pay the $200 now, and submit the proper paperwork.

ATF Lawyer: But, but, but, but......

Judge: Why would a citizen need to pay the government a tax on what amounts to a lawnmower muffler? Which muffles the sound to make communities surrounding shooting ranges more pleasant, and that could reduce hearing loss in shooters and hunters?

ATF Lawyer: We will appeal.

Judge: By that time, the defendant should have completed his court mandated paperwork, and paid his $200 tax.

If only������. Except of course guns and gun accessories are evil items possessed by evil people. I wish juris prudence would use the prudence of which you speak.

[SHIVAN]

You assume jurors can't be held in contempt for failing to do their job without preconceived decisions. More power to him.

Failing to do what job? A juror's job is not to uphold the law. That is the police officer's job, and the judge's job. A juror's job is to listen to the testimony, see the evidence, and then weigh that against the laws the judge outlines.

How that evidence and testimony sits with me, is for me to decide. An impartial jury of their peers. I am not there to uphold the law, I am there to do a civic duty that requires I examine that law and the testimony, and decide as a peer what I believe is just, to the best of my ability.

Unless the GOV has got airtight links to this guy actually doing illegal acts, I am not going to make the leap of faith that they are able to discern his intent on threaded caps. He told someone that they could be used to put an oil filter on the end of the gun for a one shot, crappy suppressor? So what? You could do that, and it is that user's choice to do something illegal, or not. Are they on trial here too?

I've told people, that were unaware, that you could make a rudimentary explosion occur by mixing chemicals from the cleaning supply aisle at Walmart. I did not intend for them to do this, only to educate them that certain normal chemicals combine to make fire/steam/explosions. Just like my high school chemistry teacher explained....and my college chemistry professor ACTUALLY performed....

He didn't pay the tax or ask the government's permission. Ok fine, then he should pay the tax and send the paperwork. Anything beyond that, I am not seeing the item as something he shouldn't/couldn't otherwise possess.