New Glocks this summer

[Naphtali]

I really don't get how / why people are into glocks any more. I LOVE my 2008 Gen 3 G17, because Glock hadn't cheaped out then, going to MIM parts and screwing up their ejectors / extractors / inferior slide finish etc. until ~2010.

I switched to the VP9 when I shot 4 different Gen 4 Glock 17s, around 2014, and every single one had between a 7 - 20% brass to face / chest problem. And Glock said the problem was me (and about 10,000 other people mysteriously since then) doing something wrong. Something so wrong I shoot expert IDPA. And no other manufacturer's pistols have ever done this to me once in tens of thousands of rounds. But anyway...

So then I recently bought 3 brand new Gen 4 Glock 19s. Not because I wanted to give Glock the business, but because I have tons of old great peripherals, and it really was the best gun (ignoring BTF) that works as a concealed carry purse gun for my wife. And I naively thought I might get lucky on BTF.

-- The gun store - with whom I do much business - simply agreed to do an exchange when the 1st G19 had a 35% BTF rate over 12 mags of testing, shooting mostly Speer GDHP 124gr +P (for those who may not know, this is the most widely used - and probably the best per Doc GKR / FBI gel testing - ammo for home defense / LE in G17s / G19s).
-- Before even buying the replacement, the owner's son kindly agreed to shoot Gen 4 G19 #2 himself at their on-site range. When he got 40% BTF, he told me not to bother, and we'd shoot a third.
-- So #3 Gen 4 G19 subsequently had a ~5% BTF rate. This was about as good as I figured I'd get, so I took it, thinking I'd probably be more likely to do worse if I rolled the dice again. Plus I felt increasingly guilty screwing with my favorite gun store, courtesy of Glock's engineering incompetence.

So 7 for 7 with 9mm Gen 4 Glocks having BTF problems, including 3 brand new manufactures, and using only ultra-high quality ammo (though lesser ammo - Win NATO and Speer 124gr Lawman had equal BTF rates in testing).

And of course, Glock still has never heard of BTF when I called again 2 weeks ago to tell them the above story and bitch about how their engineers have sucked for nearly a decade now.

So what gives with the ongoing Glock fetish??? The company's made crap 9mm pistols for 8 years running, and it has neither the skill to fix the problem, nor the balls / honor to admit that it even exists.

I hated - and by hated I mean hated - to give them the business here, but it was honestly the least evil solution for my wife's needs. I swore I'd never buy another Glock, and I re-swore it after this one. Take H&K's QC and engineers, multiply that skill by about 0.25, and you have Glock (and most other pistol manufacturers).
.

Not really off topic, as my main point is that it's impossible for me to be excited about anything Glock for years now. It's like if Ford released overwhelmingly defective cars 8 years in a row, that it couldn't fix, and denied that the obvious problems existed even when sent videos, instead blaming "user error", and yet there was this massive fan club that couldn't wait for the new model every year...

Someone enlighten me please on what everybody gets here that I'm missing. Like, did Glock send the FBI cherry-picked or specially modified guns when it won the FBI contract? I know there were some differences in the 17M, but none had anything to do w/ ejection & extraction. Or does the FBI like (or at least not mind) getting hit in the face repeatedly with brass during testing? And the Army - where Glock was runner-up - didn't care about BTF either? Or Glock cheated there too with cherry-picked weapons in testing? Or it's just about which company bribes the Feds most effectively (like the laughably unsafe P320 that the FBI rejected for major safety problems actually winning the Army contract, despite the fact that the gun fires on its own in drop tests???) ? Which still explains nothing about the civilian market... I'm honestly stumped about all this. It's like nobody is actually shooting the guns they buy any more.

I have no financial connection / personal loyalty to H&K. I'm just loyal to shit that works... like my gun not repeatedly shooting ME in the face with a warm paintball whenever I use it. You're not going to have eye pro on in a real concealed carry shoot. And if BTF gives you a central corneal abrasion in a firefight on your aiming eye, you're either going to die or survive through luck / no fault of your own...

[boombotz401]

I carry a 2014 built gen 4 19 personally owned on and off duty

This gun has never once let me down, no BTF no failures of any type across countless rounds competitions along with open/concealed carry in all weather

To answer your question I carry a glock because it just works, I own many other guns but simply put in fastest with a 19...it points quickly and natural.

If something needs to be repaired or routine parts change I don't have to mess with roll pins or etc, a pen will take it to bare bones





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Naphtali]

I carry a 2014 built gen 4 19 personally owned on and off duty

This gun has never once let me down, no BTF no failures of any type across countless rounds competitions along with open/concealed carry in all weather

To answer your question I carry a glock because it just works, I own many other guns but simply put in fastest with a 19...it points quickly and natural.

If something needs to be repaired or routine parts change I don't have to mess with roll pins or etc, a pen will take it to bare bones




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

No one denies that there are Glocks that don't have BTF. They're just not that easy to find. Like not all Sigs have terrible quality - it's just that some horrendous level under 100% have terrible quality. So you can always find a guy somewhere with his one good post-2005 Sig (like me - I have a P239 that works perfectly - but I also recognize Sig is an abysmal company since Ron Cohen deliberately ruined Sig's quality for profit when he became CEO in 2005, converting entirely to cheap MIM internal parts from India, and gutted Sig's QA / QC), like you can find a guy with his one post-2009 9mm Glock without BTF. But like any empirical analysis, you need to look at 10,000+ to get an accurate picture.

You got lucky with your one. I'm 0 for 7 since 2010, as are many thousands of other users. No one gets hit by lightning 7 times without some systematic reason, nor do thousands of people get hit by lightning from only one company - and none of the others - without a systematic reason. If you assume that 10% of 9mm Glocks have BTF (which I guarantee you it's much higher than that), then the odds of me being 0 for 7 are 1 / 10^7 = one in ten million. I'm not that unlucky. My honest guess is probably 90% of post-2009 9mm Glocks have BTF > 5% of the time. For a left-eye shooter, like my wife or any lefty, it's far worse.

In this case, it's Glock's combination of a deliberate decision to sacrifice quality to save money by using MIM parts (most specifically the ejectors and extractors), and their engineers are honestly not close to the talent seen at truly high quality companies (HK being the best overall example imo). The biggest screw-up from those 2 factors - which has plagued Glocks for the past 8 years, and can still be seen looking at 3 consecutive brand new manufactured 9mm Glocks today - is BTF in an excessive percentage of their guns, occurring in up to 35-40% of shots fired. And because Glock still does not know how to fix this, when you send it in, they just randomly change parts, send back a letter saying (lying) that they could not replicate the problem. And Glock will force you to pay for the shipping, unlike most other manufacturers. So much for the warranty...

So when they make a new version, my thoughts are (1) it probably creates more new problems than it solves old problems (2) that they'll never try to or be able to fix, and (3) whose existence they'll deny and blame on the user, no matter how many thousands of people complain about them for a decade.

That's been their M.O. since 2010, and they've made a ton of money acting that way. Probably more money than if they'd acted ethically. So why on Earth, after close to a decade of completely remorseless bad behavior, where they got rich off that bad behavior, would anyone think they'd suddenly develop a sense of ethics, or magically acquire talent they haven't had, in their upcoming new pistol? People are excited to beta test a brand new gun, where rampant problems permanently plagued the predecessor, and any reports of bugs found in that beta testing are treated as heresy by corporate Glock? And it's for defending your life???

I just can't stomach propping a company like that up financially, unless I had no other good choice. I really didn't with my wife's recent pistol, and I still feel bad about buying it. (I really wanted to get her the subcompact VP9, but the trigger, while absolutely superb, is far too dangerously light for a novice shooter under stress. The NY1 trigger in a G17 / G19 is pretty close to ideal for a novice using a pistol while scared)

[oldtexan]

No one denies that there are Glocks that don't have BTF. They're just not that easy to find. ............

Sorry to hear of your experiences with Glocks.


I'm right-handed, right-eye dominant. I've got five Gen 4 Glocks (4 17s and a 19, a mix of blue and red label guns), all built and bought new within the last 3 years, all with stock guts, with about 11K among them. I clean them about every 500 rds and use FP10 as lube. I get a BTF event maybe once per several hundred rds, if that, and all I shoot is Lawman 147 TMJ, Fed AE 147 FMJ, and Fed 147 HST (P9HST2). I do seem to notice the BTF mostly happens if I'm tired near the end of a training session, or if I'm moving vigorously while shooting. Maybe a fourth or third of my shots are SHO or WHO. I change my mag springs every year or two, and change recoil springs at about 4K rds. I've also got a Gen 3 17 and a Gen 3 19, both from 2008-2009, with about 10-11K between them. Similar BTF experience as with Gen 4, same maintenance, same ammo, also stock, same everything except I change the recoil springs at about a 3K interval. I use a thumbs forward very high grip applying a good bit of pressure.

I shoot weekly with several guys, two of whom also have Gen 4 Glock 9mms, 17s and 19s, made in the last few years. They are each doing about 3-5K per year and I can't recall them mentioning BTF; I haven't observed it myself while they are shooting that I can recall. They shoot a variety of ammo: Lawman, Fed AE, Fiocchi, Blazer Brass, etc, in various weights.

I am completely bewildered by the experience you describe, as it is so unlike my own, and am completely at a loss to explain the contrast.

[Naphtali]

Sorry to hear of your experiences with Glocks.


I'm right-handed, right-eye dominant. I've got five Gen 4 Glocks (4 17s and a 19, a mix of blue and red label guns), all built and bought new within the last 3 years, all with stock guts, with about 11K among them. I clean them about every 500 rds and use FP10 as lube. I get a BTF event maybe once per several hundred rds, if that, and all I shoot is Lawman 147 TMJ, Fed AE 147 FMJ, and Fed 147 HST (P9HST2). I do seem to notice the BTF mostly happens if I'm tired near the end of a training session, or if I'm moving vigorously while shooting. Maybe a fourth or third of my shots are SHO or WHO. I change my mag springs every year or two, and change recoil springs at about 4K rds. I've also got a Gen 3 17 and a Gen 3 19, both from 2008-2009, with about 10-11K between them. Similar BTF experience as with Gen 4, same maintenance, same ammo, also stock, same everything except I change the recoil springs at about a 3K interval. I use a thumbs forward very high grip applying a good bit of pressure.

I shoot weekly with several guys, two of whom also have Gen 4 Glock 9mms, 17s and 19s, made in the last few years. They are each doing about 3-5K per year and I can't recall them mentioning BTF; I haven't observed it myself while they are shooting that I can recall. They shoot a variety of ammo: Lawman, Fed AE, Fiocchi, Blazer Brass, etc, in various weights.

I am completely bewildered by the experience you describe, as it is so unlike my own, and am completely at a loss to explain the contrast.

You sound like the gun store I bought / returned the 19s from. When I told them about the 4 17s (before I bought G19 #1, and I was saying my "Please God don't let this G19 have BTF issues" prayer), they said "You're the unluckiest person with Glocks we've heard of." When they shot the 1st G19 after me and got ~ 1/3 BTF with different ammo from my 3 types, they were stunned. When they shot G19 #2 at my request before I even touched it and got a slightly higher % of BTF, they were in disbelief, but it was their shooters experiencing it firsthand.

Not sure what to say, except my recoil control is exceptional, and it makes no difference in my shooting / my wife's shooting / if I give it to one of the professional shooters who gets a corporate paycheck / free ammo to shoot and destroys me at IDPA every month - everyone gets the same BTF I do with these guns, fresh or tired.

Problems can happen in batches, and luck certainly plays a role. But the real problem is that, if you do get unlucky, Glock usually can't fix it. Their strategy is random replacement of the ejector and extractor, and if that doesn't work, they just send it back and claim there is no problem. That's huge, and for me a dealbreaker. Their guns effectively don't have a warranty as far as I'm concerned. When you buy a gun afflicted with the problem for which they have become famous, you just bought a permanently defective gun. The only question is what % of the time it's defective.

[Naphtali]

Sorry to hear of your experiences with Glocks.


I'm right-handed, right-eye dominant. I've got five Gen 4 Glocks (4 17s and a 19, a mix of blue and red label guns), all built and bought new within the last 3 years, all with stock guts, with about 11K among them. I clean them about every 500 rds and use FP10 as lube. I get a BTF event maybe once per several hundred rds, if that, and all I shoot is Lawman 147 TMJ, Fed AE 147 FMJ, and Fed 147 HST (P9HST2). I do seem to notice the BTF mostly happens if I'm tired near the end of a training session, or if I'm moving vigorously while shooting. Maybe a fourth or third of my shots are SHO or WHO. I change my mag springs every year or two, and change recoil springs at about 4K rds. I've also got a Gen 3 17 and a Gen 3 19, both from 2008-2009, with about 10-11K between them. Similar BTF experience as with Gen 4, same maintenance, same ammo, also stock, same everything except I change the recoil springs at about a 3K interval. I use a thumbs forward very high grip applying a good bit of pressure.

I shoot weekly with several guys, two of whom also have Gen 4 Glock 9mms, 17s and 19s, made in the last few years. They are each doing about 3-5K per year and I can't recall them mentioning BTF; I haven't observed it myself while they are shooting that I can recall. They shoot a variety of ammo: Lawman, Fed AE, Fiocchi, Blazer Brass, etc, in various weights.

I am completely bewildered by the experience you describe, as it is so unlike my own, and am completely at a loss to explain the contrast.

I should add 2 things:

1) Try to count how many threads / people here and at major competitor forums are dealing with this issue since 2010. I bet you give up long before you're done counting.

2) Look at what a booming business Apex has selling replacement extractors for post 2009 9mm Glocks. People aren't spending all that money to replace a part (that you'd never otherwise think about) because their brass is missing their face. Or because Glock can be relied on to fix the issue (for free, other than shipping) when you send it in under warranty with BTF problems. The Apex Gen 4 version is only out of stock in some places, but you can't find the Gen 3 version in stock anywhere at the moment. Money talks, and that's a ton of money doing a ton of talking, for a long time now.

[Wake27]

Can we keep this on topic instead of arguing BTF issues? Its a known problem but doesn't affect all guns. Debate over.

[ST911]

Can we keep this on topic instead of arguing BTF issues? Its a known problem but doesn't affect all guns. Debate over.

Yup, good idea. See several previous threads on the BTF topic.

[Evel Baldgui]

Front serrations ... Meh

[drummerdude1188]

There has been a discussion over on glocktalk about the soon to be release Glock Gen 5. It is suppose to be the civilian version of the FBI 17M/19M. Glock is suppose to make an official announcement August 30. Apparently, some dealers are taking pre-orders and expect delivery early September. Anyone here order one yet?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ck-17m-leaked/

Im on the list for a 19 and 17 from GT Distributors. They said they expect them the 1st or 2nd of September. Ill advise when I get the call. They said LE price will still be the same as the Gen 4.