definition of Retro, Clone, Clone Based, and Enhanced Clone

[Renegade04]

........

I do want to ask this; what type of barrel was used originally on A2 carbines? Did they produce the M4 profile when they introduced the A2(s) that replaced the A1(s), or was there a totally different barrel profile initially used altogether?

There were a few carbines in the M16A2 series. They were the Model 723, Model 733, and later, the Model 727. The Model 727 is the only one of the three that had an A2 upper receiver. The Model 723 and 733 were based on the M16A1 to begin with. They used the same upper and lower. They transitioned into using the M16A1E1 (C7) upper as this was part of the M16A2 development. The later Model 723 was much like the later Model 727 in that the only real notable difference was the upper receiver.

Compare.

Late 723


727


The Model 723s used 1/7 twist barrels. The earlier ones used A1 profile (.625") 14.5" barrels and the later used the 1/7 twist Gov't profile (.750") with M203 cuts. The Model 733 Commando originally used a 11.5" 1/7 twist A1 profile barrel and transitioned to a 11.5" 1/7 twist Gov't profile (.750") barrel. The late version also had A2 upper and lower receivers.

Early 723


Late 733


I hope this helped a little bit. With Colt's production of the various models, variations were abound. Many times, it is hard to nail down just one version.

[GRA556]

Yes this did help a lot. I've never really followed these too close before now. Arranging the photos with the descriptions the way you did put it all in to place and I appreciate it.

I think this upper I bought is basically a "mutt". Somebody did some parts swapping and I have a hunch they pulled an A2 20" rifle barrel off and replaced it with a new or like-new 6920 barrel and then sold it as new.

I'm vague on who all besides Colt produced AR15A2(s) besides Armalite that were offered in mass amounts for the civilian market. I've heard that Rock River and DPMS did but I've never seen any of these and therefore I have no examples of them to compare. This of course leads to my confusion as to who the Colt, etc., "contractors" were that offered A2 for either domestic and/or foreign markets. It would be interesting to find a source where I could research all of this.

I might go ahead and break this down or go over it again real well with a flashlight in an effort to find hidden casting marks and/or engravings. Interesting mystery indeed.

I guess for now I can change the hand guards to single heat shields and just call it a "retro 727" ... (???) I built it with an extra A2 stock I had since I was going to do a rifle length upper and have them both just share the same lower (for now).

[Circle_10]

What do we know about the Model 725? According to The Black Rifle the first Canadian C8 carbines were produced by Colt for Canada as the Model 725. Anyone know if they had the early C8's odd barrel profile - lightweight, 14.5", 1:7 twist but ".750 diameter at the front sight? Apparently a similar profile was evaluated for the XM4 program too.

[Renegade04]

What do we know about the Model 725? According to The Black Rifle the first Canadian C8 carbines were produced by Colt for Canada as the Model 725. Anyone know if they had the early C8's odd barrel profile - lightweight, 14.5", 1:7 twist but ".750 diameter at the front sight? Apparently a similar profile was evaluated for the XM4 program too.

The Colt Canada C8 carbine range are carbine variants of the C7 family, and is mechanically and aesthetically very similar to the Colt 653. Colt made the initial C8s for Canadian Forces as the Colt Model 725. The C8 has a 14.5" A1 profile (.625") barrel like the Colt Model 653 M16A1 carbine, but with a 1/7 twist appropriate for the 5.56×45mm NATO C77 cartridge. The C8 incorporates the design improvements featured on C7 rifles. They also had the C7 type uppers with A2 field sights and a brass deflector.

This is my Model 653 for reference. The barrel is not correct as it should be .625" at the gas port.



The Diemaco/Colt Canada Model 725 was very much like this with the exceptions listed above. The 725 also had an A2 FH. The stock on the 725 was a 3rd Generation meaning that it was the CAR fiberlite stock unlike the Mode 653's aluminum vinyl acetate stock. They also had an A2 pistol grip.

The C8A2 carbine is very similar to the C8, but having a cold-hammer forged heavy 14.5" barrel (as opposed to the 14.5" pencil-profile barrel) and a flat-top upper receiver.

[ClassIIIGunsmith]

IMG_2757.jpg
here is my M733 aside from A1 grip. Also would we call this a Clone, or what?

[GRA556]

IMG_2757.jpg
here is my M733 aside from A1 grip. Also would we call this a Clone, or what?

Nice gun

[ClassIIIGunsmith]

This is my Model 653 for reference. The barrel is not correct as it should be .625" at the gas port.

Do we define this a a clone because it's mostly correct in the Eyes of hardcore cloners?

[Renegade04]

IMG_2757.jpg
here is my M733 aside from A1 grip. Also would we call this a Clone, or what?

Definitely clone. Nice 733.

[Renegade04]

Do we define this as a clone because it's mostly correct in the Eyes of hardcore cloners?

It is a clone. It is not 100% correct, but it is a clone nonetheless. In reality, the upper should be a Colt M16A1 type (probably CH forge codes), the barrel should be 14.5" 1/12 twist instead of a 14.7" 1/9 twist barrel. BTW, the safety selector has been swapped out since I took this picture. It now has an original M16 selector (modified). One day, if I can afford it, I will most likely buy a 14.7" 1/12 barrel for it.

[Junkie]

I'm kinda sidetracking the discussion here but is there a Facebook group specializing in retro ARs?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1619366295005298/ is another retro group