Vehicle tactics classes

[Standby]

I recently saw a forum post where an instructor (not one of ours) questioned the logic of civilians (concealed weapons permit carriers) taking a “vehicle tactics class”. His perspective being that “it’s just a car people, get out of the car and fight with your pistol the same as anywhere else”. It’s an interesting perspective and yes, once you are out of the car, gun fighting is gun fighting BUT… gunfights never go the way you plan them, because you don’t get to make all the decisions. A gunfight normally involves two or more people (otherwise its murder or suicide)...The bad guys get to decide the where, when and how many. What if you have loved ones with you? What if you have a small child in a car seat? What if you have your whole family with you? What if there are two bad guys, one on either side of the car? What if you and your wife / husband or significant other BOTH carry guns, how are you’re going to address each scenario to increase the chances of winning and not in danger each other? What if the bad guys are already on you and have you in their sights BREFOR you get your gun out? What if…what if…what if! How should we negotiate the car seat belt? Sounds simple right (we have seen more than one “operator” fail miserably and therefore lose the fight by getting hung up on the seat belt. What do bullets actually do when they go through windshields, door panels, car seats etc? What tactics can we use to get out of our seatbelt, engage through the car, get out of the car, use of the car for cover or concealment. What is it like to shoot a handgun from the inside of a closed vehicle, to the left, right, forward or rearward? So yes here are MANY reasons a civilian should take good vehicle tactics class. But ultimately the choice is yours take a course or not. But I ask you “how can you believe you have the best chance of winning in this environment when you have NO practical training or experience in it?”

[GTF425]

I recently saw a forum post where an instructor (not one of ours) questioned the logic of civilians (concealed weapons permit carriers) taking a “vehicle tactics class”. His perspective being that “it’s just a car people, get out of the car and fight with your pistol the same as anywhere else”. It’s an interesting perspective and yes, once you are out of the car, gun fighting is gun fighting BUT… gunfights never go the way you plan them, because you don’t get to make all the decisions.

They're not wrong. A vehicle is nothing more than a piece of terrain.

What if you have loved ones with you? What if you have a small child in a car seat? What if you have your whole family with you? What if there are two bad guys, one on either side of the car? What if you and your wife / husband or significant other BOTH carry guns, how are you’re going to address each scenario to increase the chances of winning and not in danger each other?

Read "Sentinel" by Pat McNamara.

What if the bad guys are already on you and have you in their sights BREFOR you get your gun out? What if…what if…what if!

Treat it like any other ambush. If you can, blow through the kill zone. If your vehicle is disabled, get away from the giant bullet magnet and use either successive or alternating bounding based on the terrain available and the threat you're dealing with.

How should we negotiate the car seat belt?

Use your non firing hand to release it, insuring you have your other arm out of the way. Keep your body as low as possible when turning to dismount, scan the ground below you, 5 meters behind you, identify your nearest cover, then sprint to it.

What do bullets actually do when they go through windshields, door panels, car seats etc?

Load dependent. Basic gist of windshields; if you're shooting out, hold the same point of aim while engaging if possible. The first shot out is basically gone if they're any further than the hood (a 9mm will shoot about 5 feet high at a target 15ft away), but the follow up shots will hit the target so long as they go through the hole made by that first round. I basically press the muzzle as close to the glass as I can and dump rounds. Door panels do **** all to stop bullets, as do car seats.

Axles, engine blocks, and the A frames are really the only "cover" you have with a vehicle, and even then, you need to be moving as aggressively as possible away from a vehicle. But that really is ammo dependent...7.62x39 rips through A frames, while M855 can struggle depending on the vehicle. I wouldn't plan on a car being "cover", it's really just temporarily reinforced concealment.

Shooting in to a windshield, they're going to drop. Slow, heavy bullets will drop more. You can negate this by better matching the angle of the glass you're shooting in to, ie shooting from above at an angle as opposed to straight on.

If shooting in to a vehicle from a side, rounds will tend to ricochet off of a windshield. Otherwise, it's a wild card, but you're safe to assume those doors aren't doing a goddamn thing to help you.

What is it like to shoot a handgun from the inside of a closed vehicle, to the left, right, forward or rearward?

Very loud and smoky.

And yes, you should attend a class. And download a Ranger Handbook to become familiarized with the Battle Drills so you understand the concepts of reacting to and breaking contact.

[Chameleox]

Awesome post, GTF!

My meager suggestion is to look at the course material for the vehicle tactics classes you're interested in. I won't begrudge anyone their choice of what to do with their time, money, ammo, and freedom, but not all vehicles+gunz classes are created equally or the same.

Learning to de-bus multiple shooters under fire against a team of (simulated) adversaries staging a somewhat coordinated attack, or learning to intercept a vehicle, deal with threats, and extract a HVT might be fun and all, but it might not be the best use of your money. If that sort of thing is the weak spot in your Kung Fu, you must really be on top of your game. You might be; I don't know.

OTOH, there's tremendous value in knowing how your skillset and gearset interact with vehicles. You might not be traveling heavy with 3 buddies through hostile territory, but you could get carjacked, take a wrong turn near a riot, or your Uber fare could flip out on you. Plan accordingly, and pick an instructor/class that suits your needs as well as your style.

[SeriousStudent]

I would encourage that person to attend Craig Douglas's VCAS class with an open mind. I suspect that they would leave with very useful input.

I'm not talking smack at all to the instructor mentioned by the OP. Just that Mr Douglas (Southnarc) has a habit of providing excellent training that is very, very useful. Part of his teachings include working in and around vehicles.

[GTF425]

Just that Mr Douglas (Southnarc) has a habit of providing excellent training that is very, very useful.

His ECQC class is the best money anyone could spend on training.

[bighawk]

His ECQC class is the best money anyone could spend on training.

Good to know. He's teaching this class in my area in a few months I hope I can make it

[Inkslinger]

I recently saw a forum post where an instructor (not one of ours) questioned the logic of civilians (concealed weapons permit carriers) taking a “vehicle tactics class”. His perspective being that “it’s just a car people, get out of the car and fight with your pistol the same as anywhere else”. It’s an interesting perspective and yes, once you are out of the car, gun fighting is gun fighting BUT… gunfights never go the way you plan them, because you don’t get to make all the decisions. A gunfight normally involves two or more people (otherwise its murder or suicide)...The bad guys get to decide the where, when and how many. What if you have loved ones with you? What if you have a small child in a car seat? What if you have your whole family with you? What if there are two bad guys, one on either side of the car? What if you and your wife / husband or significant other BOTH carry guns, how are you’re going to address each scenario to increase the chances of winning and not in danger each other? What if the bad guys are already on you and have you in their sights BREFOR you get your gun out? What if…what if…what if! How should we negotiate the car seat belt? Sounds simple right (we have seen more than one “operator” fail miserably and therefore lose the fight by getting hung up on the seat belt. What do bullets actually do when they go through windshields, door panels, car seats etc? What tactics can we use to get out of our seatbelt, engage through the car, get out of the car, use of the car for cover or concealment. What is it like to shoot a handgun from the inside of a closed vehicle, to the left, right, forward or rearward? So yes here are MANY reasons a civilian should take good vehicle tactics class. But ultimately the choice is yours take a course or not. But I ask you “how can you believe you have the best chance of winning in this environment when you have NO practical training or experience in it?”

Most of your hypotheticals can be addressed with your gas pedal more effectively than your pistol. With that said I would absolutely take a vehicle class if you have the opportunity.