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Thread: HST still the go to for most the 9mm guys?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    Strange as it may sound, ammunition manufacturers know a good deal more about their products than we consumers do. When comprehensive internal testing, outside 3rd party testing, and field reports are evaluated they may reveal aspects of performance that benefit from tweaks. Such tweaks may also be needed for a particular customer's specifications, and incorporating it in an entire sku's production is usually more efficient. Even before it's a loaded cartridge, component manufacturers have their own processes and individual product development as well.

    There's much more to it than the naked eye. Certainly, more than a few rounds through a chronograph, into a gel concoction, and onto youtube.

    As for the G2, it does a bunch of things that the regular 147 doesn't. Most folks won't need them to do it and are well served by the legacy product.
    This statement is, of course..100% correct. No problem with it as written.
    And, I would like to know, and am asking again, what specifically does G2 do that regular Gold dot doesn't? Im asking, not saying it does or doesn't do anything.
    But to say manufacturers are wrong, or even outright lie isn't wrong either. When an ammo maker gives ballistics ,for say a .223 load showing very high feet per second, WHY do they use a 24" barrel when almost EVERYBODY will be realistically using a 16" barrel?
    WHY do they consistently advertise high velocities and most who test come up far short? HORNADY Im talking to you specifically.
    And don't poo poo people just because "they are on youtube"...many of them are doing better testing it seems than the factories.
    Ive quit carrying Winchester +P+ Ranger 127's because consistent testing over a few years now shows over & over it just does not open up like it should, basically a hi-velocity fmj. But Winchester claims otherwise. And so do other people about this and other ammo, like Doc R who used to be on here, contradicting what the makers had to say quite often, as I recall.
    As ABNAK said & did...the pork loin test with 4 layers denim would be a realistic test. Many of the youtubers go to great trouble and lengths to do ammo evals, also people like LuckyGunner and so on. I read ammo makers info & reviews LAST..then I take em with a dose of salt.
    The obedient always think of themselves as virtuous rather than the cowards they really are.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    I got 1021fps out of my Glock 19 with HST 147gr +P a few years back. Shot it into 13" of pork loin through 4 layers of denim. It came to rest in a gallon ziplock baggie filled with water I had placed behind the meat. Expanded to .60 so I was quite pleased.
    Thanks for info..I may indeed try to mimick that test soon, thanks.
    The obedient always think of themselves as virtuous rather than the cowards they really are.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Shooter View Post
    Thanks for info..I may indeed try to mimick that test soon, thanks.
    I actually did two tests like that, one with Boston Butts that I had to remove the bone from beforehand and then the pork loins, which didn't require removing bone so for my lazy ass it was easier!

    One of those two tests also showed a .40 cal 180gr HST opened up to .70 which is pretty good. And to top it off the .40 was shot through a 3.2" barrel on a Walther PPS! Both tests were conducted with 4 layers of denim.

    Oh, the Ranger loads you mentioned above? Shot the 165gr and 180gr .40 versions. Did NOT expand and ended up in a bag of Sakrete I used as a stop for the Boston Butt test. I will not carry those loads in any caliber.
    Last edited by ABNAK; 05-13-17 at 13:26.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    Strange as it may sound, ammunition manufacturers know a good deal more about their products than we consumers do. When comprehensive internal testing, outside 3rd party testing, and field reports are evaluated they may reveal aspects of performance that benefit from tweaks. Such tweaks may also be needed for a particular customer's specifications, and incorporating it in an entire sku's production is usually more efficient. Even before it's a loaded cartridge, component manufacturers have their own processes and individual product development as well.

    There's much more to it than the naked eye. Certainly, more than a few rounds through a chronograph, into a gel concoction, and onto youtube.

    As for the G2, it does a bunch of things that the regular 147 doesn't. Most folks won't need them to do it and are well served by the legacy product.
    I agree with everything you said above, and far be it from me to tell the manufacturer what they should or shouldn't do, but I do think the manufacturer should tell us when they take a very popular round and change it. What did they do, why did they do it, and what are the results of the change are important. Sure, we can't really know performance until independent testing, but at least it's a starting point.

    The Speer G2 is a completely different round. It even has a different name. No way to confuse it with any other Speer product. Whether it's better, worse, or no different is something that testing and street performance will decide, but in the mean time, people can order it or not - as they see fit.

    The 147gr HST is a different animal. Unlike the G2, there is no way to differentiate the new P9HST2 from the old P9HST2 without comparing bullets. What did they tweek? Why did they tweek it? Why did they take what many had considered one of the best rounds out there and change something?

    When I compare the specs on the back of the ammo box for both the older 147gr and the newer 147gr, the numbers are the same. Accurate or not, are they really the same? If they are, what did the tweek accomplish? If they aren't, how are they different?

    Until someone like Doc or Molon does their magic and reports on their findings, I find the newer rounds suspect. I wish I didn't, but I don't know where these rounds fall vs my older 147gr or my 124gr. I'm sure it's a good round, and I would not be concerned carrying it, but that's not the point.
    Last edited by moonshot; 05-14-17 at 08:55. Reason: Corrected grammer error.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonshot View Post
    I agree with everything you said above, and far be it from me to tell the manufacturer what they should or shouldn't do, but I do think the manufacturer should tell us when they take a very popular round and change it. What did they do, why did they do it, and what are the results of the change are important. Sure, we can't really know performance until independent testing, but at least it's a starting point.

    The Speer G2 is a completely different round. It even has a different name. No way to confuse it with any other Speer product. Whether it's better, worse, or no different is something that testing and street performance will decide, but in the mean time, people can order it or not - as they see fit.

    The 147gr HST is a different animal, but we don't know why, and we don't know in what ways. What did they tweek? Why did they tweek it? Why did they take what many had considered one of the best rounds out there and change something?

    When I compare the specs on the back of the ammo box for both the older 147gr and the newer 147gr, the numbers are the same. Accurate or not, are they really the same? If they are, what did the tweek accomplish? If they aren't, how are they different?

    Until someone like Doc or Molon does their magic and reports on their findings, I find the newer rounds suspect. I wish I didn't, but I don't know where these rounds fall vs my older 147gr or my 124gr. I'm sure it's a good round, and I would not be concerned carrying it, but that's not the point.
    Honestly? If I had to guess it was for the "penetration uber alles" folks out there. Sure, penetration is important but so is expansion. That can be the only reason I can think of, especially since the reports are less expansion and more penetration. Yay, we can all carry Gold Dots branded under a different name.
    Last edited by ABNAK; 05-13-17 at 18:11.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    I actually did two tests like that, one with Boston Butts that I had to remove the bone from beforehand and then the pork loins, which didn't require removing bone so for my lazy ass it was easier!

    One of those two tests also showed a .40 cal 180gr HST opened up to .70 which is pretty good. And to top it off the .40 was shot through a 3.2" barrel on a Walther PPS! Both tests were conducted with 4 layers of denim.

    Oh, the Ranger loads you mentioned above? Shot the 165gr and 180gr .40 versions. Did NOT expand and ended up in a bag of Sakrete I used as a stop for the Boston Butt test. I will not carry those loads in any caliber.
    Ive dropped those +P+ Ranger loads like a hot 'tater. Got acouple hundred Ill keep for..whatever, but they wont be my carry load again.
    So for now, in 9mm- its just 124gr. +P GD & +P 124gr HST, and am looing into the 147's HARD. Ive never used 147's before not even range ammo, but am listening to all here & elsewhere.
    The obedient always think of themselves as virtuous rather than the cowards they really are.

  7. #47
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    Personally I use 124gr +P Gold Dots (DoubleTap's Bonded Defense) in my 9mm pistols. I haven't ever tested it in gelatin, but I trust the results of others that that particular bullet is good to go. I may look at 147gr at some point. 15 years ago before I was aware of Doc's tests, I used 147gr because I subscribed to the "heaviest bullet in a given caliber" school of thought.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Shooter View Post
    When an ammo maker gives ballistics ,for say a .223 load showing very high feet per second, WHY do they use a 24" barrel when almost EVERYBODY will be realistically using a 16" barrel?
    SAAMI sets a standard test barrel length for caliber. Back then the 223 REM was mainly a varmint round shot out of bolt actions, most were around 24".

    I prefer the recoil of the 147, so that's what I run. You could try them out for that, but you don't need to be chasing terminal performance over what you are running.

  9. #49
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    I feel the decision of what ammo to carry should come down to penetration and expansion. Since none give you the best of both worlds, I chose the ones that offer the best penetration with good expansion and not the reverse. The Gold Dot G2, in relationship to expansion, is an unknown quantity to me but, because it's supposed to penetrate well, I've loaded my carry 9s with it and am being optimistic that it will expand well also. Testing will tell me in the near future.
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  10. #50
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    I use the 124 gr. +P HST's in my 9mm's. Shoot pretty good and are reliable.

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