Huuuge groups today, what's going on?

[Wake27]

I noticed that my Noveske wasn't shooting well today so I tried a lot of different combinations to diagnose the problem but I am still am unsure. There are a lot of variables so I'd appreciate any help to narrow down the possibilities. I haven't done a whole lot of shooting outside 15m with the rifle, but I've done enough that I'm pretty sure I would have noticed if it was jacked up from the factory.

Ammo: Remington UMC and American Eagle
Mags: M3 PMAGs
Range: First noticed at 50m, several more groups fired at 50 and a few at about 12m
Support: Seated at a bench, using an ammo can under the rail
Sights: MBUS Pro BUIS, EXPS-3, G33 magnifier
Rifle: Factory Noveske, only modification that could affect accuracy would be the removal of the stock muzzle device and install/pinning of a BCM comp at around the 500-1000 round mark; current round count approximately 2,800 and it has all been brass

I started to lose track of what ammo was shot with each group after I noticed that they both performed relatively similar (relatively shitty). I got some ok but mostly terrible results with both types of ammo and all sight possibilities. Most were shot with just the EPXS-3, a few fired with the dot and magnifier, and a few with just irons. No one else shot the gun, but I grabbed my wife's factory BCM w/ T2 and put up my normal type of group so I don't think it was all me. If anything, the EOTech was over-tight which is unfortunate because some of the groups looked like it was just sliding all over the rail. Most of the target feedback I got from viewing through my spotting scope immediately after each group.

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This was the target after I noticed I was having issues and was fired at 50m. First group was 10 rounds with the EOTech, magnifier, and UMC, with a POA of center mass. They started center and then steadily drifted left. The two bullseye targets were next, five rounds each and I believe with the same setup. The head was second to last. I switched ammo to the AE for this group and fired without the magnifier, I think. It was a ten round group which was the widest, going from the misses above his head all the way down into the upper torso. At this point, I dropped the mag and threw it into my wife's BCM. Five rounds from that same mag of AE, with a T2 and no magnification, to the bottom right area of the target. I knew exactly which shot I dropped low, and this is a pretty typical group for me when I put in modest effort.



I don't remember much about the second target. I think I used both types of ammo, but I'm not positive. I also think this was all iron sights and only my Noveske. I do know that it was fired at 50m and that the two groups on the torso were from one string of 10 rounds. It looks like I just adjusted my POA half way through, but I was pretty careful and don't think I made that significant of an adjustment for five rounds. Maybe if this was at 100m, I could believe it. Its also weird to me that despite the distance between the two groups, they themselves are not that bad compared to some of the others. Notice that the torso hits are off to the right but the bullseye hits favor left. The left bullseye had one round hit just to the left of the paper. The two in the head were fired with the same group as the two in between the head and the left bullseye. Then you see three rounds to the left of the right bullseye and two rounds high, I think all of which were from the same group. There is one round unaccounted for, IIRC it was from the group to the head.



The last target was shot at about the 15m line, again with both types of ammo I think. The pair in the left bullseye was fired standing with the BCM and Aimpoint. All others were fired with the Noveske, still on the bench. I don't remember what sight I used to fire the right bullseye, but it was still at 15m so not too good no matter what. The low center-mass hits had five rounds of each - irons, EOTech, then EOTech and magnifier. Low makes sense for the zero and that distance, but clearly those results were pretty atypical in every other scenario with that gun.



So, I need help weeding out the variables. The last time I shot past 15m was a year ago, so I suck. I couldn't even tell you the last time I really shot with irons, so I suck there too. But, some of that shit is all over the place. Especially the first target where I had a MASSIVE spread aiming at the head, then put the same mag into my BCM and immediately fired a decent group. Both were with 1x optics and while it is possible that I had both types of ammo in that mag and it just happened to switch to the less shitty one (AE I would assume) when loaded into the BCM, I highly doubt it. I just couldn't find a consistent point of failure because it was all over the place. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Kdubya]

When was the MD removed and new one installed? Since you make a point to include that variable, is it safe to assume that was a recent modification? Perhaps this even being the first time out since the upgrade.

[Wake27]

When was the MD removed and new one installed? Since you make a point to include that variable, is it safe to assume that was a recent modification? Perhaps this even being the first time out since the upgrade.

Should've mentioned that, but no. It was swapped probably around 500 rounds, definitely under 1,000. Also, I did have some key holing issues a year ago, but I'm almost positive that was due to some shitty Freedom Reman stuff as that was the only other time I noticed an issue with accuracy.

ETA - realized I may have never cleaned this barrel. It wasn't as bad as I expected, but I definitely need to run a boresnake through it a few times. Still, shitty ammo and a dirty barrels wouldn't be enough would it?

[ggammell]

Should've mentioned that, but no. It was swapped probably around 500 rounds, definitely under 1,000. Also, I did have some key holing issues a year ago, but I'm almost positive that was due to some shitty Freedom Reman stuff as that was the only other time I noticed an issue with accuracy.

ETA - realized I may have never cleaned this barrel. It wasn't as bad as I expected, but I definitely need to run a boresnake through it a few times. Still, shitty ammo and a dirty barrels wouldn't be enough would it?

Did you notice any difference between the federal and Remington ammo?

[twm134]

I have had several barrels that I never cleaned until I had trouble hitting torso size steel at 100 meters. From the bench the barrels wouldn't stay on paper so I don't know how large they were grouping. After a thorough cleaning with copper solvent the barrels were back to shooting under 2 moa.

Sometimes it took a couple thousand rounds and sometimes it took 5,000 rounds but eventually I have always had to clean the copper out of my barrels to bring back the precision. If you haven't done that, ever, maybe you should try.

In my opinion bore snakes do very little to nothing to clean a barrel.

[JasonB1]

I have taken to plugging the muzzle with a paper towel and sticking a zip lock bag over it before squirting lots of Ballistol in to the chamber and letting it stand a couple of days before patching the barrel and always find the towel black and dissolved copper blue green. Did this Friday and 48 hours later pulled an Otis Ripcord down the barrel that was cleaned and fairly new so it was tight. Followed this up with a standard Otis flex rod with patch and that patch came out black as a coal bucket so snake rigs are a bare minimum kind of thing at best.

[Wake27]

Did you notice any difference between the federal and Remington ammo?

Not really, which is why it was hard to remember which ammo shot each group. I was hoping that they'd be a little more distinct, but they were more or less the same.


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[MegademiC]

Check every threaded piece on the gun, barrel nut, sight screws, handguard, castlenut (might as well).

Inspect muzzle for strikes.

[Wake27]

Check every threaded piece on the gun, barrel nut, sight screws, handguard, castlenut (might as well).

Inspect muzzle for strikes.

Everything seems tight and no evidence of damage to the muzzle. I appreciate the ideas everyone, please keep them coming. I'll be gone for the next month so if I need to send it to Noveske that'd be a good time to do it. I just want to be reasonably sure that it is the upper before I do.


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[P2000]

I have had several barrels that I never cleaned until I had trouble hitting torso size steel at 100 meters. From the bench the barrels wouldn't stay on paper so I don't know how large they were grouping. After a thorough cleaning with copper solvent the barrels were back to shooting under 2 moa.

Sometimes it took a couple thousand rounds and sometimes it took 5,000 rounds but eventually I have always had to clean the copper out of my barrels to bring back the precision. If you haven't done that, ever, maybe you should try.

In my opinion bore snakes do very little to nothing to clean a barrel.

I've had a similar experience with a barrel that one day wouldn't group 55gr, but interestingly would group 77's. Softball size groups at 75 feet. It had been cleaned somewhat regularly with hoppes #9 or some foaming stuff at least every 500 rounds but never truly removed the copper.
I cleaned thoroughly alternating with sweets 7.62 and hoppes and it grouped again. I could feel the bore smooth out substantially during the cleaning (jag and tight patches). Approx 5-7k through the barrel at this time.

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