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Thread: Huuuge groups today, what's going on?

  1. #41
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    Some testing has shown that some muzzle devices can accumulate fouling over time and mirror your results. Clean muzzle and device.

    When a bolt is about to break, accuracy has been shown to become very erratic. Inspect bolt closely.

    Clean copper out (already suggested).

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    Its one of their 249 style CL barrels. I'll try out some more cleaning stuff, thanks guys.
    Due to the way these are made, they are rougher than most. You can see mandrel marks in them. They look like radial hairline scratches. These can hold copper.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    Due to the way these are made, they are rougher than most. You can see mandrel marks in them. They look like radial hairline scratches. These can hold copper.
    Interesting, thanks. I’ll keep an eye on the bolt but this MD is actually brand new.


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  4. #44
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    To add to what other's have posted... Clean the carbon well first, the copper is going to be down embedded more deeply below the powder residue and around the imperfections in the rifling. I've never liked the soak method for copper removal, especially with a CL bore. Bore-tech is good stuff that won't knock you out with the odor like Barnes, Sweets or Butch's but I'm still always careful with a CL bore.

    Use carbon cleaner first, patch, brush let sit a few mins, then patch. If you continue to get dark, black carbon, keep brushing with solvent and patching until it's significantly reduced before moving on to the copper remover. Repeat until most black is gone, then go to the copper remover.

    When done cleaning, swab bore with a patch soaked in isopropyl alcohol (90% better, but most common is 70%) This will deactivate any remaining residue from bore/copper cleaners and then follow with a clean dry patch then one with a very light coat of oil, followed by a quick dry swab.

    When I first read your post "time for a deep cleaning" was my first thought.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jethroUSMC View Post
    ...I've never liked the soak method for copper removal, especially with a CL bore.
    ...but I'm still always careful with a CL bore.
    .
    Why? Ate you saying you are more concerned with Cr than carbon steel?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    Why? Ate you saying you are more concerned with Cr than carbon steel?
    CL usually is composed of a layer Copper, Nickel then Chrome. At a microscopic level it has pores, so it's about chemistry and honestly probably a bit of overthinking the chemical composition of the lining and cleaner. I'm probably overthinking it a bit much because part of the chemical process of burning powder releases some ammonia into the bore as well as moisture as a byproduct of the combustion process, but IMO AR's shouldn't need the benchrest soak overnight treatment for carbon steel or SS.

    Although, I never use aggressive cleaners on precision bolt rifles either, as a small amount of copper fills any imperfections in the bore and will give the most consistent accuracy from my experience.

    Most benchrest shooters will take several fouling shots (up to 10) after a deep cleaning - a waste of time and cleaner for me. Fouling shots are depositing a small amount of copper and carbon back into the bore to fill those voids and establish the accuracy they're used to. I understand the consistency portion of a BR shooters cleaning/fouling process, but I don't shoot benchrest so I don't see the need.

    I'm of the opinion more harm is done from improper cleaning methods than letting a firearm get a bit more dirty. When accuracy begins to degrade clean reasonably and go out and shoot - with the caveat of water or other debris entering the bore or chamber that would require a cleaning, protectant and/or remove potential obstructions.
    Last edited by jethroUSMC; 04-23-18 at 08:00.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jethroUSMC View Post
    CL usually is composed of a layer Copper, Nickel then Chrome.
    Decorative Cr is. Industrial hard chrome, such as inside a barrel is Cr plated directly to steel.
    At a microscopic level it has pores, so it's about chemistry and honestly probably a bit of overthinking the chemical composition of the lining and cleaner. I'm probably overthinking it a bit much because part of the chemical process of burning powder releases some ammonia into the bore as well as moisture as a byproduct of the combustion process, but IMO AR's shouldn't need the benchrest soak overnight treatment for carbon steel or SS.

    Although, I never use aggressive cleaners on precision bolt rifles either, as a small amount of copper fills any imperfections in the bore and will give the most consistent accuracy from my experience.

    Most benchrest shooters will take several fouling shots (up to 10) after a deep cleaning - a waste of time and cleaner for me. Fouling shots are depositing a small amount of copper and carbon back into the bore to fill those voids and establish the accuracy they're used to. I understand the consistency portion of a BR shooters cleaning/fouling process, but I don't shoot benchrest so I don't see the need.

    I'm of the opinion more harm is done from improper cleaning methods than letting a firearm get a bit more dirty. When accuracy begins to degrade clean reasonably and go out and shoot - with the caveat of water or other debris entering the bore or chamber that would require a cleaning, protectant and/or remove potential obstructions.
    See my comment in red. The only copper in your bore is from bullets.

  8. #48
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    Just to clarify my previous posts; I don't promote soaking a bore overnight or regularly cleaning all the copper out of the bore at some arbitrary interval. However, I have found with several barrels (whether precision stainless or rack grade chrome lined) that eventually at some point the precision has been lost and cleaning or removing much of the copper from the bore has restored them to their previous capabilities. They didn't need all of the copper removed but most of it.

    If a barrel became so temperamental that it needed extensive cleaning frequently I probably wouldn't bother with it any more.

  9. #49
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    Well I now have one hell of a cleaning setup. There’s about 8-10 patches in here with Bore Tech carbon remover and then maybe 5-6 with the copper remover. About 50 passes with the nylon brush after each. Now to see how many patches it takes to come out clean.




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  10. #50
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    Huuuge groups today, what's going on?

    I just decided it was good enough. I’ve been working on it for the better part of five hours and went through almost half of a 16oz bottle of copper cleaner plus some carbon remover, two nylon brush tips for the cleaning rod, and over 200 patches. It’s still not perfect looking down the barrel, but if it doesn’t shoot by now I’m just getting a new upper.

    ETA - this was supposed to be an edit to the post above not another post...
    Last edited by Wake27; 04-28-18 at 20:24.
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