Gas Port Data

[Iraqgunz]

Very hot for a mid. I assume when you say carbine buffer, you mean the standard 2.9 oz and not an H buffer. I have probably said this a thousand times or so, but carbine buffers belong in the trash. I have yet to see one properly made carbine or mid upper that will not function with an H buffer.

My Noveske SS 16" measured ~.081" in a completely unscientific aircraft awl, thumbnail, digital caliper fashion. Interestingly, this upper on a stock LMT lower with carbine buffer and FABCG failed to lock back last round of 5.56 XM193. The only thing we can conclude is the bolt was traveling too fast for the bolt catch to catch it. H2 and it runs fine...

[ssc]

Very hot for a mid. I assume when you say carbine buffer, you mean the standard 2.9 oz and not an H buffer. I have probably said this a thousand times or so, but carbine buffers belong in the trash. I have yet to see one properly made carbine or mid upper that will not function with an H buffer.

IG, I appreciate your input. Perhaps you can answer a question about LMT. Do you know why they have standard carbine buffers in both their carbines and also in their complete lowers as opposed to H buffers? I have asked them via email and in person at SHOT. The only answer they give is, "That's the way they come." I get the same answer as to why their carbines come with SA BCG's vs FA BCG's.

Thanks for any insight.
Cheers, Steve

[Iraqgunz]

Typically only a few of the bigger named companies use the H buffer. The real answer always comes down to cost. There are very few if any midlength and carbine gas guns that will not function reliably with an H buffer. The price difference between a C and H at the OEM level is several dollars. Add in a few other shortcuts and you can save 15.00-25.00 dollars in costs with little effort.

That means more turkeys for the peasants and cruises for shareholders and CEO's at the end of the year.

IG, I appreciate your input. Perhaps you can answer a question about LMT. Do you know why they have standard carbine buffers in both their carbines and also in their complete lowers as opposed to H buffers? I have asked them via email and in person at SHOT. The only answer they give is, "That's the way they come." I get the same answer as to why their carbines come with SA BCG's vs FA BCG's.

Thanks for any insight.
Cheers, Steve

[vicious_cb]

Typically only a few of the bigger named companies use the H buffer. The real answer always comes down to cost. There are very few if any midlength and carbine gas guns that will not function reliably with an H buffer. The price difference between a C and H at the OEM level is several dollars. Add in a few other shortcuts and you can save 15.00-25.00 dollars in costs with little effort.

That means more turkeys for the peasants and cruises for shareholders and CEO's at the end of the year.

Pretty much this. Thats the reason as a company gets bigger quality starts to drop as when you start cutting corners on the 100's of rifles you produce each month the cost savings starts to add up. And why you should be looking at smaller companies because they tend to get all the details right since they can eat the cost of a few dollars per rifle at low volume because the extra profit margin is negligible.

[26 Inf]

Pretty much this. Thats the reason as a company gets bigger quality starts to drop as when you start cutting corners on the 100's of rifles you produce each month the cost savings starts to add up.

And why you should be looking at smaller companies because they tend to get all the details right since they can eat the cost of a few dollars per rifle at low volume because the extra profit margin is negligible.

Your post is true, although in a backhanded way you've just explained why no one should buy a Colt.

It can be harder to QC higher production numbers, but not impossible. And yes, there are corners to be cut. If a manufacturer is willing to let economies of scale in raw material/parts costs work for them, they should be able to REASONABLY increase profit while maintaining high QC, so long as the market supports the numbers produced.

The key here is reasonable profits.

I was once told, by a person whom I trusted, and who undoubtedly had the knowledge, that during a class for a manufacturer who had sold rifles to a large agency, the trainer had issues with some of the rifles. It was an easily fixed issue and in his AAR to the manufacturer he outlined the fix for subsequent rifles. IIRC it would have cost around a buck. The manufacturer told him that the target market for their rifles wasn't LE, and that most folks who purchased their rifles wouldn't use them hard enough to warrant the fix.

This is sad, but true. Most folks would be happy with the carbine buffer supplied in most rifles as they don't know how smooth the rifle can potentially cycle with very little effort.

I think for the most part smaller, boutique, manufacturers make up for better components with a correspondingly higher price. Someone who knows what they are getting is often willing to scrimp/wait to pay that higher price.

[vicious_cb]

Colt is a weird one where they have pressure put on them by the .gov to maintain a quality standard where alot of their parts like the 6920 are pulled from the same line as the gov't M4's.

When Colt gives in to market pressures however you get the disastrous Colt Expanse line which is absolute garbage as far as quality goes.

Then you have companies with 2 separate production lines like FN, one for civilian models and one for the gov't where you cant equate their military guns with the quality of the civilian guns.

This is why I hold a company like BCM in such high regard. They've gotten pretty big in the last decade but somehow managed to maintain the same high quality standard over the years. Anyone who's taken apart a large number of BCM guns over last 7 years or so should notice that everything is the same from the year to year. Thats remarkable.

[MistWolf]

I have probably said this a thousand times or so, but carbine buffers belong in the trash. I have yet to see one properly made carbine or mid upper that will not function with an H buffer.

Experiments I have done with an adjustable gas block an various buffers agrees with this. With the gas block adjusted to the minimum setting that would allow the AR to eject and lock back, I found it would do so with the carbine, H and H2 buffer. Closing the gas block one more click meant the action would eject, but not lock back. All three buffer weights used the same setting. What was different is with the carbine buffer, the action was bottoming out and recoil was sharper. Recoil with the H buffer was softer and softer still with the H2. Carbine buffers are just too light.

[26 Inf]

Colt is a weird one where they have pressure put on them by the .gov to maintain a quality standard where alot of their parts like the 6920 are pulled from the same line as the gov't M4's.

When Colt gives in to market pressures however you get the disastrous Colt Expanse line which is absolute garbage as far as quality goes.

Then you have companies with 2 separate production lines like FN, one for civilian models and one for the gov't where you cant equate their military guns with the quality of the civilian guns.

This is why I hold a company like BCM in such high regard. They've gotten pretty big in the last decade but somehow managed to maintain the same high quality standard over the years. Anyone who's taken apart a large number of BCM guns over last 7 years or so should notice that everything is the same from the year to year. Thats remarkable.

Thanks, good points as well as illuminating.

[LMT/556]

This is why I hold a company like BCM in such high regard. They've gotten pretty big in the last decade but somehow managed to maintain the same high quality standard over the years. Anyone who's taken apart a large number of BCM guns over last 7 years or so should notice that everything is the same from the year to year. Thats remarkable.

Feel the same way about LMT, it's the same rifle off the same line as some .gov entity. I've gotten use to switching triggers for an SSA, swapping out buffers for an H or H2 and a B5 SOPMOD. On my MRP upper order they swapped out the semi-auto for FABCG and test fired before it left which is exactly what I wanted.

It is my understanding buffer weight is based on barrel mass, for instance Colt supplying an H buffer with their heavier barreled M4A1. Most of my rifles are heavier medium contour technically, thus should require at least an H. Lots of range time this winter also without any cycling issues even with the H2, my 18" is an intermediate so that might help there but it's my smoothest rifle.

[LMT/556]

I assume when you say carbine buffer, you mean the standard 2.9 oz and not an H buffer. I have probably said this a thousand times or so, but carbine buffers belong in the trash. I have yet to see one properly made carbine or mid upper that will not function with an H buffer.

I don't normally run any of my rifles with a carbine buffer, that day I ran it on a new lower and didn't have an H or H2 to drop into it. I found it odd that it failed to lock back despite the sharp impulse and over-gassed barrel. Those dimensions are from memory but I remember seeing what others had posted on Noveske port size and thinking ii whas in line with that.