B&T APC223 GEN 2

[TMS951]

So it has been a while but I wanted to give a longer range report here. I had held off until I had more data, a full 500 rnds, because it wasn't pretty.

Aug. 26th.
90 rounds of IMI mk 262 clone ammo fired. All went well.

Later I found the gas piston seized after shooting, it moved and had been removed prior to firing. When I say seized I don't mean stiff, I mean an adjustable wrench to turn it loose and a wood block to knock it out. It appeared to have what looked like copper melted and flowed on parts of it. It was very difficult to remove. I lubed it with ALG lube. It has continued to move, but seems to need to be lubed often.
unnamed-3.jpg
The gold in the picture is what I took to be flowed copper.

Sept. 1
30 Speer gold dot 75 gr. All went well.
30 Speer Gold Dot 64gr. One failure to feed, nose of round impacted above chamber, failing to chamber. (this will become a theme)
30 Fiocchi 62 gr. .223 fmj. All went well.
30 Prvi 75gr. BTHP. All went well.
60 Privi 5.56 m193. All went well.

Sept. 23rd
50 Federal Fusion MSR 62gr. BSP. 3 failures to feed. 2 with bullet tip impacting above the chamber, 1 with the round not totally being picked up.
30 IMI mk 262 clone. All went well.

Sept. 24th
30 IMI mk 262 clone. All went well.

Oct. 9th
30 IMI mk262 clone. All went well.

Nov. 19th
90 Speer Gold Dot 75gr. 4 failures to feed. Nose of round impacts above chamber.
unnamed-1.jpg
75gr. GD nose above chamber.

So in a total of 500 rounds fired out of new D&H USGI mags and new Gen. 2 Pmags there were 8 Failures to feed. A 1.6% failure rate, or 62.5 rounds between stoppages.

All failures were secluded to the soft point duty ammo. Speer GD 64 gr. 1/30, Speer GD 75gr. 4/120, Federal fusion MSR 62gr. 3/50. This adds up to a total of 8/200 in failures or 25 rounds between stoppages.

On the other hand IMI 77gr smk mk. 262 clone was zero stoppages in 180 rounds.

I have given up on using the fusion/gold dot ammo in this gun. I honestly won't even waste any more in testing. They don't feed well. The MK 262 is a long pointy round and feeds great. I never tried m855 but I imagine it would run well too.


Lets move on to my experience with the gun when it does feed.

Its was amazing accurate, easily making hits a 200yards on 12" steel plate with the aim point squatting.The trigger is amazing, best I've ever had in a factory trigger. 1st stage is very light, second stage is heavier but not bad at all. Super smooth, reset is a little long.

Recoil is very very low, but it has a lot of muzzle flip. While the gun does not push back, it drops back and lifts the muzzle very pronounced. I find fast follow up shots more difficult than any 223 I have shot, not having much to grab onto and real it in probably doesn't help. A vertical grip could really help here, however being a pistol I con't put one on.

A full magazine seats with no effort, like the bolt was locked back almost. A lot of my AR15s I have really hammer the magazines in to get them to seat. I do wonder if the bullets starting down low like this contribute to the feeding issue?

unnamed-2.jpg

How I have been running the gun. KAC hand stop made me much more comfortable about shooting a finger off. I replaced the huge flash hider with a mini Vortex (made by smith for spikes), this cut the gun down another 1.5". I have the polymer back up sites on it now, they have little sites on them when folded that is kind of a 1/3 cowitness to the Aimpoint. Honestly they impede to much of the view for my liking and will be removing them. A mini ACOG 1.5x16 would be perfect on this gun, but with its lack of ability to feed barrier blind ammo I have I may not sink more money into it.

Over all I guess knowing what I know I'd still buy one. It really is just so cool and so small. It sucks it won't feed soft points, I bought this gun pretty specifically to be deployed from a vehicle, presumably against an aggressor in or around another vehicle. This makes not being able to run my barrier blind ammo really suck.

I plan on carefully logging another 500rnds of just the IMI mk262 clone and see what happens. My guess is it will be reliable, I'll be reporting back.

For the record I don't think the gun is 'broken', I don't see how B&T could fix this, I feel it is what it is and has to do with the design. As I noted before I wonder if the low mag placement is the source of the problem. I feel as it follows a certain design of ammo, it is an ammo issue (of sorts).

[dushan]

TMS951-

Thanks for your review of the APC223.

Yours is gen 2 right?

How do you like the KAC handstop? It looks great on the 223. I've been thinking about getting one for my APC9, but they're pricey (of course the APC9 is pricey, and even more so the APC223)

If you do get a mini ACOG you'd have to get the new low height version with a low mount like Bobro/Trijicon. I have the standard TA44 with the Midwest mount and it's way too high on my APC9

Thanks

[TMS951]

Thanks. Yes, its a Gen 2.

KAC hand stop fit on it very nicely. Expensive, yes. But like you said so is the gun. This was my justification. It would also be my justification for the ACOG, and yes the new low one is what i'm after. I have the standard height one on an AR cool little site. I saw the new low one and thought it would be perfect on this gun.

[dushan]

TMS951-

Thanks for the info

A gentleman on instagram has a mini acog with a low mount if you're curious how it would look (it looks awesome)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXRtz5fh...&tagged=apc223

Also, if you join the Brügger & Thomet (B&T) Firearm Owners Group

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1296908786998938/

the gentlemen appears to also feeding problems

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1296...2215620468252/

[PNorris]

Lubing of the gas piston?? That is the first time I have ever heard that for a piston gun. I have a Bren 805, a SCAR 17 and a PWS and they all expressly state that NO lube is to be used. That seems strange and concerning. I was thinking of this gun. Now, maybe I will wait on the BREN 806.

[C4IGrant]

One of the things we have to remember is that these guns are made for European LE/MIL. They use FMJ ammo. So you might find some feeding issues with more "exotic" ammo types.


C4

[TMS951]

Lubing of the gas piston?? That is the first time I have ever heard that for a piston gun. I have a Bren 805, a SCAR 17 and a PWS and they all expressly state that NO lube is to be used. That seems strange and concerning. I was thinking of this gun. Now, maybe I will wait on the BREN 806.

Yes, I have a SCAR 17 as well. I've never had a similar issue.

Also it's not technically the gas piston, but the part I pictured. I'm not sure what it's called, I probably shouldn't have called it the piston. The gas port selector or piston cup? Something like that.

I took it out at 90 rounds when it seized and then cleaned a lubed it. After each shooting session since I have tried turning it by hand and it does move. Now 410 rounds later its stiffened up quite a bit. I will lube it after next time I shoot it.

I think whatever that copper looking stuff that siezed it was some sort of assembly lube or factory freeze like Glock uses on its frame rails. When I received the gun it was so perfect and so clean it was as if it had never been test fired.

[C4IGrant]

Lubing of the gas piston?? That is the first time I have ever heard that for a piston gun. I have a Bren 805, a SCAR 17 and a PWS and they all expressly state that NO lube is to be used. That seems strange and concerning. I was thinking of this gun. Now, maybe I will wait on the BREN 806.

Some piston guns call for lube and some do not. The APC223 does not call for it, but believe you can do it safely if you feel so inclined. Now, with that said, it would be wise to remove the piston/key right after shooting and clean the carbon off it (before it sets).


C4

[g3k]

Thanks TMS951 for your review. Have you contacted B&T about the issue? Even if it's something that they may not be able to address in your particular rifle (although possibly, the feed ramps are replaceable it appears) it may be good for them to be aware for a potential design tweak/gen 3.

Also, it may not do much but, try a gen 3 pmag. The feed geometry is different enough and more chamber direct that it may be worthwhile to test it out. I've had a couple guns that didn't like mag mono-podding and certain loads with gen 2 pmags that are completely solved with gen 3 mags. Burning ammo to fix a problem is never fun but I would bet it might solve that particular issue, or is at least worth investigating.

[Rayrevolver]

You mention no vertical grip. If its over 26" then I believe its a "firearm" and you can use a VG.

IANAL, YMMV etc