CMR30 in 5.7 using FiveSeven mags...

[call_me_ski]

Uh, read the discussion re: 5.7 over on lightfighter. Multiple PDs that dumped the 5.7x28 due to poor terminal performance.

I don't doubt those after action reports, and I am well aware about its poor reputation in the aftermath of OIS. However, that has little to do with its ability to penetrate LVL 3 armor, nor does it indicate that it does so worse than the 22mag.

[SteyrAUG]

I don't doubt those after action reports, and I am well aware about its poor reputation in the aftermath of OIS. However, that has little to do with its ability to penetrate LVL 3 armor, nor does it indicate that it does so worse than the 22mag.

We were talking about the civie 5.7mm correct? Because if you were talking about the SS190 round that is a completely different discussion.

[TED]

I was under the impression that 5.7 is a better round than .22 mag for the following reasons...better feed reliability (bottle neck), better ignition reliability (centerfire), loadable (although with difficulty, maybe a locked breech may help?), more velocity with similar projectile weights.

If that is the case and if one likes the concepts as well as form, design, or layout of the CMR30 then it would seem that one in 5.7 would be even better. Additionally, you would not have to re-invent the wheel with magazines, just use FiveSeven mags. 20rd or 30rd with extension. Same mags for pistol and carbine (unlike PS90).

I guess you could make a general argument against 5.7 overall and that would have some definite validity. OTOH, you could argue, as I do that IF a CMR30 in .22 mag has merit, a CMR30 in 5.7 should have even more so.

TED

[KTR03]

We were talking about the civie 5.7mm correct? Because if you were talking about the SS190 round that is a completely different discussion.

I am a civvie. R and R weapon systems ammo is not restricted. It is a solid 30 gr copper hollow point going over 2000 FPS. The point tends to collapse like a wad cutter, but it penetrates over 15 inches including ricocheting off the table under the block.

This is a little like criticizing 9mm based on silvertips from the 80s. Things change - its 2017. We don't need to be recycling obsolete info.

[SteyrAUG]

I was under the impression that 5.7 is a better round than .22 mag for the following reasons...better feed reliability (bottle neck), better ignition reliability (centerfire), loadable (although with difficulty, maybe a locked breech may help?), more velocity with similar projectile weights.

If that is the case and if one likes the concepts as well as form, design, or layout of the CMR30 then it would seem that one in 5.7 would be even better. Additionally, you would not have to re-invent the wheel with magazines, just use FiveSeven mags. 20rd or 30rd with extension. Same mags for pistol and carbine (unlike PS90).

I guess you could make a general argument against 5.7 overall and that would have some definite validity. OTOH, you could argue, as I do that IF a CMR30 in .22 mag has merit, a CMR30 in 5.7 should have even more so.

TED

My point was not to suggest a .22 mag tactical rifle, but to point out how anemic the civilian 5.7 round is.

[SteyrAUG]

I am a civvie. R and R weapon systems ammo is not restricted. It is a solid 30 gr copper hollow point going over 2000 FPS. The point tends to collapse like a wad cutter, but it penetrates over 15 inches including ricocheting off the table under the block.

This is a little like criticizing 9mm based on silvertips from the 80s. Things change - its 2017. We don't need to be recycling obsolete info.

Honestly, by the time they got to SS196 or whatever the hell it was I divested of all my 5.7mm rounds. I don't know what R&R ammo is, but I do know that when I had a FN 5.7 I couldn't order factory ammo that met military specifications.

If FN currently sold SS190 to the open market I'd have a different opinion.

[KTR03]

Honestly, by the time they got to SS196 or whatever the hell it was I divested of all my 5.7mm rounds. I don't know what R&R ammo is, but I do know that when I had a FN 5.7 I couldn't order factory ammo that met military specifications.

If FN currently sold SS190 to the open market I'd have a different opinion.

Hey Steyr,

First off, didn't mean to sound like an ass in the last post. Just calling out the fact that the ammo has come a ways since the 90s. Is it 5.56? Of course not. I may not even be as good as a 9mm JHP, but it has improved. There is civvie ammo available that is superior to ss190. I have 100 rounds of RandR ammo loaded with my SBR. 2 bucks a pop. But it works. a 32 grain all copper round going 2500fps out of a PS90 SBR... yeah it penetrates armor...

http://www.rrweaponsystems.com/57x28mm

[SteyrAUG]

Hey Steyr,

First off, didn't mean to sound like an ass in the last post. Just calling out the fact that the ammo has come a ways since the 90s. Is it 5.56? Of course not. I may not even be as good as a 9mm JHP, but it has improved. There is civvie ammo available that is superior to ss190. I have 100 rounds of RandR ammo loaded with my SBR. 2 bucks a pop. But it works. a 32 grain all copper round going 2500fps out of a PS90 SBR... yeah it penetrates armor...

http://www.rrweaponsystems.com/57x28mm

Not even sure civie 5.7s were a thing in the 90s. I think it was about 10 years ago when they hit the market. The approved civie ammo was SS192 or something like that and then the declared that had too much penetration potential so it was discontinued and I think they did it a couple more time until they ended up with that SS196 40 gr Vmax crap or whatever it was.

I know it's not 5.56, would be a pretty pointless handgun if it was. All I was trying to explain is the entire point of the 5.7 round was a handgun / smg round with more penetrating power than 9mm or other handgun rounds and after several changes to what was available on the civie market I just got bored with it. I was sitting on a bunch of the earlier SS192 stuff that was going for insanely high prices so I just sold the ammo with the 5.7 firearms I owned and never looked back.

[TED]

My point was not to suggest a .22 mag tactical rifle, but to point out how anemic the civilian 5.7 round is.

Fair point, and true. Expensive as hell too.

[Kain]

Random thoughts on this.

First, 5.7 FMJ stuff can be found at around $15 for 50. It usually the AE 40gr stuff, but for practice the ammo isn't too hard to find, not as easy as 5.56 in that price range though. So the argument can be made that if more guns were available in the caliber that you could train with it. I will also admit that an SBRed PS90 has a certain attraction to me for some reason, and I am not sure why. The pistols are neat in a novelty kind of way, and I have even known a few guys who EDCed them, they were a little nuts, but that is neither here nor there.

That said, on what I have watched with gel tests on 5.7 ammo, even some of the "military" stuff the performance on gel isn't that impressive when compared to a good 9mm JHP if looking at it as a handgun round, and is pathetic compared to something like Mk262 from even a short barrel AR. I do question some of the obsession to have a handgun that will go through armor as well, I mean I get it, but on the same note, I'm not sure I buy the need for it fully when you consider an AR being easily available, and for HD I have an AR that I would almost bet even a just SP would make it through anything up to and including level IIIa, and if they are running hard plates, the AR would stand a better chance. On the street you might be able to make the arguement that a mugger or terrorist could be sporting armor, but then again we now assume that you are going to EDC the 5.7, and while I have known guys who do, or did, most people who want to carry for defense think me carrying a Glock 19 is too damn big, and the 5.7 isn't exactly small, so.....

Lastly, while I have seen some test showing 5.7 penetrating armor, and the results in the gel once it pierced the armor ranged from straight line, to some yawling, to what would have effectively have been a flesh wound, the results are usually better out of the longer PS90 barrels, but even then still lack terminal effect from what I have seen compared to even a short AR against the same armor. I've also seen tests showing 9mm making it through armor as well. There is also actual 9mm AP ammo, we just can't readily get it like the same stuff for the 5.7.

Also, while I mentioned bulk 5.7 ammo is pretty cheap, compared to what some people think it costs(had a friend who bought one of the pistols and was paying something like $34 a box of 50 for the ammo) the "good" ammo, be that domestic "legal" copies of the military stuff, or other off the wall concoctions that are out that, are pretty expensive, in the $1 a round plus range and pretty hard to find since I don't know of any stores stocking it on a regular basis, compared to heavy 5.56, gold dot, ect. Which would deter a lot for going to it, and many from recommending it since them to get ammo that has decent wounding characteristics you are very limited.

So in short, I don't see the 5.7 in pistol or rifle/carbine/PDW being a go to gun for most people for various reasons, not saying that it can't be used from a niche perspective, but from all I have read, if you are planning on using it, get used to pulling the trigger a lot get a bunch of holes in that target and train for the mindset of driving the target to the ground with it. As far range toys, I don't see any issue, and would admit a certain interest in it for myself in that way. But, as far as guns other than the 5.7 pistol and PS90, I know of a few designs that cropped up in years past, one being the 5.7 AR upper, think I saw three of those ever, and I would say it was an interesting idea, there was also the Cobray looking abomination pistol that took 5.7 pistol mags that I think is defunct, but I am not sure. Saw a few more of them than the 5.7 uppers, but still. I just am not sure how much of a market there really is for guns in that caliber, not saying I am against more guns, I rarely am, but I would say that it needs to fil a niche or so something better than the others out there, of be shit loads cheaper. I am not even sure the CMR30 is really that big of a thing, but that could be due to lack of demand, or just Keltec's normal trinkle out supply system, I don't know.

Personally, I would be more interested in a PS90 chambered in 9mm. But, I could weird in that one.