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Thread: Realistic AR home defense scenarios--things to think about

  1. #41
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    The following is my opinion, and I'm not a SME:

    Any response to a scenario that involves the possibility of fighting is generally dependent on the situation. Just like combat, just like traffic stops, just like getting mugged; even the best laid plan never survives contact with the [perpetrator]. Do what will give yourself the most options. If that means sneaking from one area of your house to another, do it. If that means sheltering in place, do it. Could you scare an intruder away by making a lot of noise? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps he/she is "altered" enough that he/she may want to pop a couple shots in the direction from where he/she heard the noise. In any situation where the possibility exists that you might have to defend yourself, there is never only one right answer.

    Again, in my opinion, develop your own "tactical toolbox." Train in a set of fundamentals that you can tailor to fit together in order to accomplish a plan or to react to any changes in that plan. There's nothing at all wrong with learning how to clear your own house. There's nothing at all wrong with establishing safe hiding spots. The most important part? TRAIN. There's nothing worse than someone watching a couple youtube videos, but the first time he or she ever tries to put the techniques into practice is when he or she hears the proverbial bump-in-the-night. I'm not saying that you have to go to a CQB school or anything, but at least try it for yourself before you actually need it. Learn a wide-range of tactics and techniques. Practice as many of them as you can, as regularly as you can. Develop the muscle memory--just like when you shoot.

    One last piece. It may seem somewhat silly, but maybe try to run some drills--not unlike conducting fire drills. Have your "perp" act out a B & E, but shoot a video from his or her point of view. See what they see. During the next drill have him or her follow you around, recording, to pinpoint any weak spots in your tactics or techniques. Have him or her static in different areas recording your techniques to spot any mistakes from that point of view.

    Bottom line, don't just speculate; formulate and practice.
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

  2. #42
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    In the cases echo5whiskey mentions, I might want to have some remote-controlled decoy noisemakers, maybe sirens and strobes too, that I could set off with a keyfob or similar-size remote. It's also worth noting that I've been hearing from LE and retired-LE friends from multiple agencies, largely Texas and South/Southeast, about a rising trend of 3- to 4-man home-invasion crews wearing body armor.

    This is part of why, while my 1911 is my primary for the street, I've been working on building up a 10.3 AR-pistol PDW for Home Defense and other Elevated Threat scenarios, loading "GP" rounds into the ready mag and front spare with either a mag full of penetrators in the rear carrier or All GP with penetrators in the bag for Briefcase Carry and switching to stem-to-stern penetrator-loaded mags once home. Question is... Right now I'm looking at Hornady Interlock SBR 75gr, Mk 318, "classic" M855 (since I can't get 855A1), Federal Fusion and Speer Gold Dot in 62gr, and Mk 262, trying to figure out which to designate as "Prime," "Backup 1" and "Backup 2" in each of those two roles. Granted, I probably can't go wrong with any of those choices, but I seem to recall what happened, with apologies to Admiral Gorshkov, when "Good Enough" went up against "Better Than"...
    You really have to ask why Conservatives have guns? Because Liberals block freeways, burn cities, throw Molotov cocktails, loot, turn over cop cars, and think this behavior is Socially Acceptable.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    In the cases echo5whiskey mentions, I might want to have some remote-controlled decoy noisemakers, maybe sirens and strobes too, that I could set off with a keyfob or similar-size remote. It's also worth noting that I've been hearing from LE and retired-LE friends from multiple agencies, largely Texas and South/Southeast, about a rising trend of 3- to 4-man home-invasion crews wearing body armor.

    This is part of why, while my 1911 is my primary for the street, I've been working on building up a 10.3 AR-pistol PDW for Home Defense and other Elevated Threat scenarios, loading "GP" rounds into the ready mag and front spare with either a mag full of penetrators in the rear carrier or All GP with penetrators in the bag for Briefcase Carry and switching to stem-to-stern penetrator-loaded mags once home. Question is... Right now I'm looking at Hornady Interlock SBR 75gr, Mk 318, "classic" M855 (since I can't get 855A1), Federal Fusion and Speer Gold Dot in 62gr, and Mk 262, trying to figure out which to designate as "Prime," "Backup 1" and "Backup 2" in each of those two roles. Granted, I probably can't go wrong with any of those choices, but I seem to recall what happened, with apologies to Admiral Gorshkov, when "Good Enough" went up against "Better Than"...
    I dunno man. I hear your concerns regarding armor-wearing-bad-guys, and that's something to consider, perticularly if you live in an area prone to gang/cartel activity, but I'm not sure that three different ammo types in various magazines and remote controlled noise makers are the most productive avenues to pursue.

    I tend to focus on unconscious competency in engaging multiple targets and situational awareness and problem solving, rather than ammo "x" vs ammo "y". For me, having more things to think about, like what ammo is in what mag, is an undue complication.

    I'm just a regular guy, so... I dunno what works best for you. Just my 2

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterHelix View Post
    I dunno man. I hear your concerns regarding armor-wearing-bad-guys, and that's something to consider, perticularly if you live in an area prone to gang/cartel activity, but I'm not sure that three different ammo types in various magazines and remote controlled noise makers are the most productive avenues to pursue.

    I tend to focus on unconscious competency in engaging multiple targets and situational awareness and problem solving, rather than ammo "x" vs ammo "y". For me, having more things to think about, like what ammo is in what mag, is an undue complication.

    I'm just a regular guy, so... I dunno what works best for you. Just my 2
    Excellent point--all the "toolset" money can buy is completely wasted if you don't have the mindset and skillset to effectively employ it. I'm just trying to make sure that when I start working on Skillset to move past "1911 and try to Mozambique 'em," I'll at least be training with something in the general ballpark of what I'd be deploying in action. Actually, I'm only thinking two types, "Backup 1/2" being "If I can't readily lay hands on my first choice, these will also work in the role."

    Just your average deskbound geeky data-wonk here, complicated by the fact that I am literally the last living man in my family and the only even semi-able body standing between two poorly-aging old-lady relatives and the Puget Sound criminal element.
    You really have to ask why Conservatives have guns? Because Liberals block freeways, burn cities, throw Molotov cocktails, loot, turn over cop cars, and think this behavior is Socially Acceptable.
    --unknown, memed by user "KeepnitReel" at Northwest Firearms

    LITORE SINISTRUM DELENDA EST!--after, and with apologies to, Cato the Elder

    Sent from my arse using Crapatalk.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterHelix View Post
    I dunno man. I hear your concerns regarding armor-wearing-bad-guys, and that's something to consider, perticularly if you live in an area prone to gang/cartel activity, but I'm not sure that three different ammo types in various magazines and remote controlled noise makers are the most productive avenues to pursue.

    I tend to focus on unconscious competency in engaging multiple targets and situational awareness and problem solving, rather than ammo "x" vs ammo "y". For me, having more things to think about, like what ammo is in what mag, is an undue complication.

    I'm just a regular guy, so... I dunno what works best for you. Just my 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Excellent point--all the "toolset" money can buy is completely wasted if you don't have the mindset and skillset to effectively employ it. I'm just trying to make sure that when I start working on Skillset to move past "1911 and try to Mozambique 'em," I'll at least be training with something in the general ballpark of what I'd be deploying in action. Actually, I'm only thinking two types, "Backup 1/2" being "If I can't readily lay hands on my first choice, these will also work in the role."

    Just your average deskbound geeky data-wonk here, complicated by the fact that I am literally the last living man in my family and the only even semi-able body standing between two poorly-aging old-lady relatives and the Puget Sound criminal element.


    Hick's Law

    The more choices you have, the longer it takes to make a decision.
    The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    In the cases echo5whiskey mentions, I might want to have some remote-controlled decoy noisemakers, maybe sirens and strobes too, that I could set off with a keyfob or similar-size remote. It's also worth noting that I've been hearing from LE and retired-LE friends from multiple agencies, largely Texas and South/Southeast, about a rising trend of 3- to 4-man home-invasion crews wearing body armor.

    This is part of why, while my 1911 is my primary for the street, I've been working on building up a 10.3 AR-pistol PDW for Home Defense and other Elevated Threat scenarios, loading "GP" rounds into the ready mag and front spare with either a mag full of penetrators in the rear carrier or All GP with penetrators in the bag for Briefcase Carry and switching to stem-to-stern penetrator-loaded mags once home. Question is... Right now I'm looking at Hornady Interlock SBR 75gr, Mk 318, "classic" M855 (since I can't get 855A1), Federal Fusion and Speer Gold Dot in 62gr, and Mk 262, trying to figure out which to designate as "Prime," "Backup 1" and "Backup 2" in each of those two roles. Granted, I probably can't go wrong with any of those choices, but I seem to recall what happened, with apologies to Admiral Gorshkov, when "Good Enough" went up against "Better Than"...
    Perhaps I need to clarify. By "tactical toolbox" I meant TTP--Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures--methods to use as part of your OODA loop. It's all about mindset and decisivedecision-making; not at all about gadgets. Noisemakers might be one idea; but, again, I'm not trying to unnecessarily provoke blind shooting. The other items mentioned--door alarms, dogs, etc.--I think are much better suited for the purposes of noise.

    Also, being in Southeast Texas, I haven't heard anything about that kind of team outside of legit cartel stuff.
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    In the cases echo5whiskey mentions, I might want to have some remote-controlled decoy noisemakers, maybe sirens and strobes too, that I could set off with a keyfob or similar-size remote. It's also worth noting that I've been hearing from LE and retired-LE friends from multiple agencies, largely Texas and South/Southeast, about a rising trend of 3- to 4-man home-invasion crews wearing body armor.

    This is part of why, while my 1911 is my primary for the street, I've been working on building up a 10.3 AR-pistol PDW for Home Defense and other Elevated Threat scenarios, loading "GP" rounds into the ready mag and front spare with either a mag full of penetrators in the rear carrier or All GP with penetrators in the bag for Briefcase Carry and switching to stem-to-stern penetrator-loaded mags once home. Question is... Right now I'm looking at Hornady Interlock SBR 75gr, Mk 318, "classic" M855 (since I can't get 855A1), Federal Fusion and Speer Gold Dot in 62gr, and Mk 262, trying to figure out which to designate as "Prime," "Backup 1" and "Backup 2" in each of those two roles. Granted, I probably can't go wrong with any of those choices, but I seem to recall what happened, with apologies to Admiral Gorshkov, when "Good Enough" went up against "Better Than"...
    What type of armor? You bang somebody with two rounds of .223/5.56 center mass and even if it doesn't penetrate, it is going to slow them down enough for you to face shoot them. In fact it would probably stagger them more than shoots to the chest that penetrated. Think of it this way - close range, if the vest stopped the round it dissipated ALL that round's energy in the vest material and whatever is up against the back face of the vest - your chest.

    Officers, for the most part stay on their feet after taking pistol hits to the vest, but the ftlbs of energy imparted is vastly different, and the way a kevlar vest dissipates energy is different than the way a ceramic or steel plate vest dissipates energy.

    In a pistol, 124gr Federal HST has about 360ftlbs of energy at the muzzle. Both Hornady 60gr TAP Urban, or 62gr Tap Barrier have over 900 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Hammer somebody with two of those and they are staggering if not going down.

    I have my SD mags loaded with 60gr Urban. I would not advocate trying to keep track of 'primary' 'backup 1' and 'backup 2' much less go through the rigamarole of changing out ammo when I enter different environments, i.e. home, street, vehicle.

    Regarding your desire to build a 10.3 AR pistol for briefcase carry, the first thing I would say is that when trouble comes, it often comes fast and unexpected. Fate being what it is, you will probably be distracted by a cool car, an attractive female, or a squirrel, when danger grabs you by the throat.

    Unless I had a sling pack, I would probably eschew the AR pistol. Why? Because unless my hand was already inside the bag/briefcase I can't see deploying the AR pistol quicker than I could a pistol from concealment. Additionally, I'm not going to want to shoot one-handed, so the briefcase in my hand is going bye-bye. I have several covert sling bags for my SBR with a folding stock, I feel pretty self-conscious carrying any of them slung, because I would key on them, so I also expect others to key on them. The first rule is to be and act natural, so I generally leave them in the vehicle.

    What we all need is practice, practice, practice.
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 11-12-17 at 02:17.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    What type of armor? You bang somebody with two rounds of .223/5.56 center mass and even if it doesn't penetrate, it is going to slow them down enough for you to face shoot them. In fact it would probably stagger them more than shoots to the chest that penetrated. Think of it this way - close range, if the vest stopped the round it dissipated ALL that round's energy in the vest material and whatever is up against the back face of the vest - your chest.

    Officers, for the most part stay on their feet after taking pistol hits to the vest, but the ftlbs of energy imparted is vastly different, and the way a kevlar vest dissipates energy is different than the way a ceramic or steel plate vest dissipates energy.

    In a pistol, 124gr Federal HST has about 360ftlbs of energy at the muzzle. Both Hornady 60gr TAP Urban, or 62gr Tap Barrier have over 900 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Hammer somebody with two of those and they are staggering if not going down.

    I have my SD mags loaded with 60gr Urban. I would not advocate trying to keep track of 'primary' 'backup 1' and 'backup 2' much less go through the rigamarole of changing out ammo when I enter different environments, i.e. home, street, vehicle.

    Regarding your desire to build a 10.3 AR pistol for briefcase carry, the first thing I would say is that when trouble comes, it often comes fast and unexpected. Fate being what it is, you will probably be distracted by a cool car, an attractive female, or a squirrel, when danger grabs you by the throat.

    Unless I had a sling pack, I would probably eschew the AR pistol. Why? Because unless my hand was already inside the bag/briefcase I can't see deploying the AR pistol quicker than I could a pistol from concealment. Additionally, I'm not going to want to shoot one-handed, so the briefcase in my hand is going bye-bye. I have several covert sling bags for my SBR with a folding stock, I feel pretty self-conscious carrying any of them slung, because I would key on them, so I also expect others to key on them. The first rule is to be and act natural, so I generally leave them in the vehicle.

    What we all need is practice, practice, practice.
    Great advice and dead on. When the fecal matter hits the oscillating device you will resort to what/how you practice and with what you have on or near you.
    Psalm 34:19

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    What type of armor? You bang somebody with two rounds of .223/5.56 center mass and even if it doesn't penetrate, it is going to slow them down enough for you to face shoot them. In fact it would probably stagger them more than shoots to the chest that penetrated. Think of it this way - close range, if the vest stopped the round it dissipated ALL that round's energy in the vest material and whatever is up against the back face of the vest - your chest.

    Officers, for the most part stay on their feet after taking pistol hits to the vest, but the ftlbs of energy imparted is vastly different, and the way a kevlar vest dissipates energy is different than the way a ceramic or steel plate vest dissipates energy.

    In a pistol, 124gr Federal HST has about 360ftlbs of energy at the muzzle. Both Hornady 60gr TAP Urban, or 62gr Tap Barrier have over 900 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Hammer somebody with two of those and they are staggering if not going down.

    I have my SD mags loaded with 60gr Urban. I would not advocate trying to keep track of 'primary' 'backup 1' and 'backup 2' much less go through the rigamarole of changing out ammo when I enter different environments, i.e. home, street, vehicle.

    Regarding your desire to build a 10.3 AR pistol for briefcase carry, the first thing I would say is that when trouble comes, it often comes fast and unexpected. Fate being what it is, you will probably be distracted by a cool car, an attractive female, or a squirrel, when danger grabs you by the throat.

    Unless I had a sling pack, I would probably eschew the AR pistol. Why? Because unless my hand was already inside the bag/briefcase I can't see deploying the AR pistol quicker than I could a pistol from concealment. Additionally, I'm not going to want to shoot one-handed, so the briefcase in my hand is going bye-bye. I have several covert sling bags for my SBR with a folding stock, I feel pretty self-conscious carrying any of them slung, because I would key on them, so I also expect others to key on them. The first rule is to be and act natural, so I generally leave them in the vehicle.

    What we all need is practice, practice, practice.
    Precisely!
    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

    "It is better to be thought a fool and to remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defaultmp3 View Post
    Why do you want to be quiet? ........... Movement from your own room will almost certainly be necessary if you have children, yet I don't see much point in being quiet in that, either...
    Because in such a rare situation, if the intruder is armed and you're clumping around like a bear in a forest, they may ambush you instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    In the cases echo5whiskey mentions, I might want to have some remote-controlled decoy noisemakers, maybe sirens and strobes too, that I could set off with a keyfob or similar-size remote. It's also worth noting that I've been hearing from LE and retired-LE friends from multiple agencies, largely Texas and South/Southeast, about a rising trend of 3- to 4-man home-invasion crews wearing body armor.

    This is part of why, while my 1911 is my primary for the street, I've been working on building up a 10.3 AR-pistol PDW for Home Defense and other Elevated Threat scenarios, loading "GP" rounds into the ready mag and front spare with either a mag full of penetrators in the rear carrier or All GP with penetrators in the bag for Briefcase Carry and switching to stem-to-stern penetrator-loaded mags once home. Question is... Right now I'm looking at Hornady Interlock SBR 75gr, Mk 318, "classic" M855 (since I can't get 855A1), Federal Fusion and Speer Gold Dot in 62gr, and Mk 262, trying to figure out which to designate as "Prime," "Backup 1" and "Backup 2" in each of those two roles. Granted, I probably can't go wrong with any of those choices, but I seem to recall what happened, with apologies to Admiral Gorshkov, when "Good Enough" went up against "Better Than"...
    Pretty much everything 26 Inf already said.
    You're juggling to many options.
    If you think a PDW in a briefcase is going to be slow to get to at the "speed of need", try guessing which rounds you're going to need and then juggling mags to switch. No thanks.
    Pick ONE of the rounds which performance makes you the happiest, and roll on. I've been working on a similar PDW and concept, but it's more a "backpack/car gun" that would be brought out pre-emptively (along with extra ammo) IF things were getting that bad. Not my "react to contact on a daily basis" gun.

    If you run up against an armored threat, blast the crap out them till they fall over (this should happen pretty quick- no-one is going to stride through a barrage of rifle fire like Iron Man without getting set on their ass or shot in one of the many places the armor does not cover), and then blast the crap out of them some more afterwards. Or better yet.... shoot where there's no armor...



    If you think the 5.56 hasn't got enough punch to get that done, switch to a .308 or slugs.
    Last edited by Jellybean; 11-14-17 at 16:34.
    I like my guns like I like my women- smokin'!

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