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Thread: Defensive Shotgun: Speed or Capacity?

  1. #1
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    Defensive Shotgun: Speed or Capacity?

    I've been on the search for my first defense of shotgun but am having difficulty narrowing my choice between semi auto or pump. My dilemma is rate of fire (speed) versus capacity.

    Now a choice between a high-quality semi auto or the old standbys (Mosberg 500 / Remington 870) is a easy choice for me-I'll go with the high-quality semi auto (Benelli M4, M2, Beretta 1301, Remington Versa Max, FNH SLP, etc.).

    The defensive shotgun(s) that have me questioning the semi auto route are the duel tube modern bull-pup designs that hold 13+ 1 on board. (20+ With mini shells). I've been looking seriously at the Keltec KSG. 18 inch barrel in a 26 inch package with a 14 Shell capacity is pretty attractive option. Reloading is obviously a slower proposition than a standard pump...but 14 shells.....

    So I'm curious to hear from members who use and train with defensive shotguns. When it comes to these types of weapons, what's most important to you between these two features; rate of fire or capacity? (Let's all agree that reliability is of the most importance). Would love to hear firsthand experience-pros/cons of the platforms I've listed above - and general opinions with rationale behind my primary question.

  2. #2
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    Don't have the time to go into really deep thoughts here, but will give a few thoughts and hopefully be able to expand on them later on.

    First, my biggest concern would be reliability. With regular loads this shouldn't be too much of an issue, but with something like the mini shells I have seen them choke guns before so I'd want to vet the hell out of the gun I was using them with. I will also say, and this may not even apply to you, but I will mention it, I have also seen more than a few people cause malfs with shotguns, both pumps and autos because they don't shoot them enough, short stroking as well as just not holding a auto tight enough to cycle the action. Also I have found some auto loading shotguns to be a bit more finicky when left stored for a long while and then shot without lubing. Anecdotal, but worth mentioning since a lot of people buy a shotgun, or any gun really, shoot it a few times, load it up, stick it in the corner or the closet, let it set there for YEARS and expect it to work perfectly when they need it.

    As far as bullpup shotguns, the KSG in particular, one of the things that could concern me with it being a pump, and I believe has been a slight issue, is when running the action the hand cycling it slipping and ending up in front of the muzzle. This is a concern that I have looking at them, and something that I would personally be considering. With the KSG as well, you have one tube, of 7 I believe, then you have to hit a lever with to change it over to the next. I'm not super convinced that it is something that is going to be natural unless you do train quite a bit to be able to do that, and it would be something I'd want to be able to do second nature since you might be doing that in the dark under a lot of stress.

    Last point, not a huge fan of manual actions these days for HD, always have the thought that I might be responding to a threat in the back of my head and end up behind the eight ball and have to engage the threat after being wounded with one arm, a pump makes that a bit of a bitch. It is a thought. Also, for the sake of clarity, I don't run a shotgun for HD, have pistols and ARs. I do want to set up a 870 though, just for shits and giggles to play with though.
    "I don't collect guns anymore, I stockpile weapons for ****ing war." Chuck P.

    "Some days you eat the bacon, and other days the bacon eats you." SeriousStudent

    "Don't complain when after killing scores of women and children in a mall, a group of well armed men who train to shoot people like you in the face show up to say hello." WillBrink

  3. #3
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    Not even close for me. Take the semi auto all day. Typical home defense shotgun shootings require 1-2 rounds, with the highest that's been seen at 3 (if i remember correctly... petty sure it was Tom Givens who did that research). Running a 1301 with 7 or 8 rounds in the gun and 6 on the side will be plenty for most reasonable and realistic options.

    Using a good semi takes a lot of effort out, in a good way. One of the biggest issues with pumps is short stroking, and the KSG is ESPECIALLY bad with that.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Owner of Aridus Industries. Creator of the Q-DC, CROM, ASA, and other fun shotgun things.

  4. #4
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    I think it has a lot to do with your experience level. While a shotgun would not be my choice for HD, if I had to pick one it would be something from the Mossberg 590 series because I'm familiar with them.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    Pricey, but this gives you both options http://www.benellile.com/m3-converti...o-pump-shotgun
    * Just Your Average Jewish Redneck *
    Participant in Year-Long Gun Fighting Training Program
    Competition Shooter in NRA, CMP, IDPA
    Past part-time sales at national firearms retailer, Never came close to breaking even!

  6. #6
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    Bring back the street sweeper.

    Gettin' down innagrass.
    Let's Go Brandon!

  7. #7
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    How many law enforcement or military organizations have adopted the KSG, or any other Kel-Tec firearm? And before someone says "It's too new" that's also an answer.

    How easy it is to get wrenched on, or get parts for? Is there a local shotgun mechanic who is both qualified and comfortable working on one? Or do you have to send it back to the factory?

    What is the threat you face - what problem are you working to solve? If you live in a neighborhood full of original gangsters, would a carbine work better? If not, then perhaps a more traditional shotgun such as the ones you listed might be both cheaper and easier to support, while filling your needs.

    I have not seen anyone shot inside a dwelling with either buckshot or slugs, get up and complain about it. Just as SpyderMan2k4 mentioned, shotguns tend to rank highly on the effectiveness scale when aimed and operated properly. Tom Givens has done a great deal of data collection in this area, and his database reflects this.

    I would and do prefer a carbine over a shotgun for home defense. But I would certainly not feel undergunned with a Beretta 1301 (which I own) a Remington 870 (own four) or a Benelli M2 entry gun (buying as we speak)

    So yeah, I am a "shotgun guy", but a BCM carbine sits by my bed every night. Police often refer to things like that as "clues".

    If you do desire a shotgun, I'd have a qualified shotgun mechanic check it out, then load it with Federal Flite-Control #1 Buck or Brenneke Home Defense slugs. Then please, please take several good classes with it. Tom Givens, Wayne Dobbs, Darryl Bolke, Bill Jeans, Steve Fisher and Robb Haught come to mind.

    Hope that helps.

  8. #8
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    I'll chime in as well saying that Kel-tec should be avoided no matter what. I firmly believe they make novelty firearms for a market that increasingly embraces novelties. I've seen more quality control issues with their products than almost anyone else, and at least at that time their production was more of a trickle.

    That being out of the way, you have to ask yourself (or tell us rather) what it is you want this shotgun to be able to do? For me it wasn't a question of "do I need a carbine or a shotgun?" because I own both. It was strictly "if I'm going to fill the shotgun role, is it going to be a semi or a pump." After that I just broke it down.
    Semi-auto
    Pros
    Can fire quickly
    Can be fired with one hand (I don't know about you, but an 18" shotgun with a short LoP stock is pretty hard for me to hold up one handed. I know I know, pushups)
    Cons
    Can be ammo sensitive
    May require upkeep on semi-auto related parts
    Depending, can be heavier (though there are lots of lighter ones)
    More expensive (depending)

    Pump
    Pros
    Will run pretty much any ammo you can find
    If you can pump it, it should go bang
    Cheaper entry price means more money left over for ammo and accessories
    Is almost 'ban proof' depending on configuration
    Cons
    Requires pumping. Which isn't easy one handed, but can be done
    Only shoots as fast as you can make it


    There's probably more for each, but oh well. In the end I cared more about reliability, simplicity, and aftermarket availability. I prefer a shorter LoP stock on my shotgun, and I like being able to put a light on anything that I might use for defensive purposes. I chose a pump action. My friends chose the Benelli M4 and a Benelli M2 Tactical. Short story, the M4 was great, heavy, but great. Just really expensive. The M2 would only cycle high brass full power defensive loads.

    I think the Magpul Dynamics Shotgun DVD is a good watch to see a display of some common shotgun manipulations to practice.

    In the end, I know what my shotguns are about. They pump, they eat everything, and they go bang. If i'm grabbing a long gun for indoors it's probably my shotgun. But I have no illusions, it's not a carbine. Although I can make solid hits with buckshot out to 25yds with a tight pattern, it's not a carbine. With my SBR I can make headshots out to 200yds. When is that going to happen?! Never, but I know what each tool can do.

    If you just want to watch red husks fly through the air at an impressive rate then by all means get a semi-auto (I can't fault you for it) but if you just want a shotgun to fill the role of a shotgun, get a pump, and learn how to feed it.
    The biggest part of running a shotgun, is feeding it. I don't care if it holds 5 rounds or 14, you gotta know how to feed it. And know how to change ammo types on the fly. Bullpups are garbage for this task.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the responses-good dialogue.

    I don't want the thread to devolve into a shotgun versus carbine debate. I do have a carbine (KAC SR15) that I train regularly with, so I have that niche covered. My question/interest relates directly to the shotgun platform - my current dilemma is rate of fire versus capacity.

    As for my purposes with the shotgun: I intend it to be my one and only shotgun, so I don't have a problem spending money for quality. I'm not looking for a "jack of all trades", I'm looking for a defensive weapon in a shotgun platform. I'm not a three 3 gunner or a hunter. I'm not a high-speed operator nor am I a novice. I'm an average Joe living in suburban America who takes comfort in preparation and pleasure in training. (And I do intend to train with whatever platform I choose, so that advice is unnecessary). I don't have a specific threat that I am trying to account for (wouldn't it be nice to know the specific threats you need to prepare for in advance of the incident). Just the random freak sh!t that targets unfortunate souls.

    Initially I had talked myself into an M4, that is until I began researching the R922 issues. I would end up spending an additional $1000 on top of the $2000 price tag to set that gun up as I would want it. I know I said I was willing to pay for quality, but I draw the line at being fleeced.

    That got me looking at the Remington Versa Max tactical. (Similar gas system to the M4). The dealbreaker for me on the Remington is that it only comes in a 22 inch barrel. That's just too long for my purpose. Other than that I've seen a lot of great reviews with regard to that weapons reliability. If that model was offered as an 18 inch I likely would have purchased one already.

    I've looked into the Beretta 1301. For the most part it appears to be a solid weapon, but the "fatal (double feed) flaw" had me second-guessing that choice. I may circle back to this option before I make my final decision.

    I see a number of responses above that give no love to the KSG. I get that, Keltec does have a reputation. I recognize that it isn't a platform that has been adopted by military or law-enforcement. I don't necessarily see that as an indictment of the firearm personally. Historically both law enforcement and military have lagged behind the technological curve. I understand it is a bull pup design and will not operate like your standard 870 or 500-I'm OK with that, and like I said I intend to train with the weapon that I choose. While researching the platform I saw lots of Internet hate between 2011-2013. There doesn't seem to be nearly as much KSG internet hate since the second generation was released a couple years ago. I could be wrong-if you are a Second generation KSG owner still fostering some KSG hate tell me about your experience. My mind is wide open when it comes to this shotgun.

    The current question I'm asking myself is whether I want the speed of a semi auto or the capacity of one of these "newfangled" bullpup shotguns. At this point in the search it's not even about the specific make/model but more the question of rate of fire versus capacity. I've argued myself into and out of all of the choices listed above at least once. I'm sure my mind will change several more times before I make up my mind. If there's additional input I'm all ears.

    I enjoyed reading all of your responses above, thanks for taking the time.

  10. #10
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    Like the others said, for defensive your unlikely to fire more than two or three shots. (probably would be more for a rifle just because they are faster to fire)

    But everything is up in the air when your day or night goes that badly.

    Anyway, when you are practicing or training your going to be stuffing shells in your shotgun constantly. It doesn't matter to me if it holds five, six, or eight. You'll still be loading it all the time.

    As far as HD with your shotgun goes, if your scenario anticipates several BG's who don't want to give up even after their buddies have each taken a round or three you really need a rifle instead of two more rounds in the magazine tube of a shotgun.

    IMO keep the shotgun short and light. 18 inch tube or shorter and four to six rounds in the magazine.

    It sounds like you have plenty of money to put into this but IMO it isn't necessary. (Unless you just really want something special)

    A pump shotgun with a light, a short LOP stock, and real sights, (if using slugs, otherwise bead is fine) is all you really need. Sling is debatable. I don't have one on my HD shotgun. And of course reliability upgrades if available.

    Buy low recoil ammo and a bunch of dummy rounds for practice. (at least 10) Get some training and go shoot.

    I bought a couple of these: https://www.tombstonetactical.com/ca...k-ghost-rings/

    Consider this one, too: https://www.tombstonetactical.com/ca...rd-black-rail/

    The rear sight screws must be replaced as they are too soft and will shear apart. But they are easy to find at a hardware store. (M4 threads) They take all 870 accessories except barrels. Mine have yet to fail. (Except I didn't heed others' warnings about the sight screws) I clean and lube them but otherwise do not treat them gently. For the price you can buy two and use one as a back up. The hogue 12 inch LOP short stock is great.

    To answer your primary question: My Chinese 870's fire as fast as I can get the sights back on target. I choose simplicity and the ability to shoot whatever I want from my shotgun over the semi auto and high capacity.

    With full power loads I've already racked the action before I can get back on target. With low recoil rounds recovery from recoil and working the action finish at about the same time. My focus is to work the action vigorously.
    I do not consider myself especially skilled with the weapon but I run it pretty well.
    Last edited by Ron3; 08-02-17 at 01:39.

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