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Thread: Defensive Shotgun: Speed or Capacity?

  1. #11
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    It doesn't get much faster than this but as fast as Jerry is he does have a few hiccups. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3m-WNk44hI

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GH41 View Post
    It doesn't get much faster than this but as fast as Jerry is he does have a few hiccups. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3m-WNk44hI
    6 rounds on target took him just under 2 seconds including reaction time with the Mossberg 500, which he has been training on for decades.
    23 rounds on target took him just 4.3 seconds using a Mossberg 930, including reaction time.


    Kindof tells me all I need to know about which is faster.
    Last edited by WS6; 08-02-17 at 07:15.

  3. #13
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    First and foremost reliability should be a priority. I favor pump action shotguns due to their not being ammunition sensitive for the most part. The short shotgun shells some people are touting don't always feed well in a pump action shotgun, so I'll stick with 2-3/4" shells. I've seen semi-automatics malfunction with some loads and that would narrow your ammunition selection for self defense and affordable training. If you decide on a semi-automatic shotgun, learning and practicing malfunction clearing drills will be different.

    In the past, I would have defaulted to and recommended the Remington 870, but not in this day and age. People have been complaining about Remington's quality control as of late, so buying a used 870 may be the route to go if you decide on a pump action shotgun.

    The Remington 870 in the picture is a police surplus shotgun I picked up at Gil Hebard Guns several years ago and it has been reliable as an anvil. I lost count on the rounds fired at the 3,000 mark. The extension is an old Remington item and the shell holder on the buttstock is glued in place. I picked up the flashlight mount at Brownell's. If you shop around, you can purchase and set up a defensive shotgun on a reasonable budget.

    Whatever you decide on, attending a good defensive shotgun course is recommended. Make sure the chief instructor knows you are bringing a semi-automatic if you choose to go that route. Continual practice is a must, as it is with any other defensive weapon.
    Train 2 Win

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    First and foremost reliability should be a priority. I favor pump action shotguns due to their not being ammunition sensitive for the most part. The short shotgun shells some people are touting don't always feed well in a pump action shotgun, so I'll stick with 2-3/4" shells. I've seen semi-automatics malfunction with some loads and that would narrow your ammunition selection for self defense and affordable training. If you decide on a semi-automatic shotgun, learning and practicing malfunction clearing drills will be different.

    In the past, I would have defaulted to and recommended the Remington 870, but not in this day and age. People have been complaining about Remington's quality control as of late, so buying a used 870 may be the route to go if you decide on a pump action shotgun.

    The Remington 870 in the picture is a police surplus shotgun I picked up at Gil Hebard Guns several years ago and it has been reliable as an anvil. I lost count on the rounds fired at the 3,000 mark. The extension is an old Remington item and the shell holder on the buttstock is glued in place. I picked up the flashlight mount at Brownell's. If you shop around, you can purchase and set up a defensive shotgun on a reasonable budget.

    Whatever you decide on, attending a good defensive shotgun course is recommended. Make sure the chief instructor knows you are bringing a semi-automatic if you choose to go that route. Continual practice is a must, as it is with any other defensive weapon.
    I disagree. I feel that the likelihood of a malfunction is far higher in a quality pump gun than in a quality semi-auto. This is because of short-stroking/user error under stress. I feel no-matter how awesome you are, this is more likely than a quality tried and true semi-auto feeding good ammo, which you have trained with and trust malfunctioning. If it DOES malfunction, clear it like a big M4. It's probably a stove-pipe or FTE or something, and the reciprocating CH and large opening make it pretty easy to clear, unlike some pump gun malfunctions.

  5. #15
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    In most HD scenarios if your pump or semi auto shotgun or rifle has a "stoppage" and your still being attacked drop that club and grab another weapon. (You have another weapon nearby, right?)

    That being said if one does have a "bobble" with a pump shotgun working the action partially (takes half a sec) nearly always clears it.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I disagree. I feel that the likelihood of a malfunction is far higher in a quality pump gun than in a quality semi-auto. This is because of short-stroking/user error under stress.
    I think you are overstating the short stroking/user error under stress. If you train with the pump gun that disappears fairly quickly. The folks that will have problems are not the ones that will train.

    If you believe, as I do, that shotguns are not safe to be stored with a round chambered, I feel the pump action has the initial advantage. Unlike, the semi, the pump can be grabbed, with the hands in shooting position and cycled as you bring it to your shoulder. Hopefully, you are never in a HD situation where that is necessary, but it is an advantage.

    For failure to fire malfunctions, the pump clears more quickly. Neophytes will sometimes forget to cycle the action of the pump after firing, a semi negates that.

    Ammo changeovers, are generally easier with a pump, however I think that is an unlikely event in the HD situation.

    Other than suggesting that you might want to avoid recoil operated semis, I would steer folks in the direction they are most comfortable - if you grew up hunting with a semi, choose a semi, if you grew up hunting with a pump choose a pump. If you are new to the shotgun become familiar with both, choose based on your perception of what you need.

    My choice for a HD shotgun is the 870 because of thousands of training rounds down the barrel of that platform. If you see me hunting, shooting clays, or practicing for 3 gun it is with a semi.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    I think you are overstating the short stroking/user error under stress. If you train with the pump gun that disappears fairly quickly. The folks that will have problems are not the ones that will train.

    If you believe, as I do, that shotguns are not safe to be stored with a round chambered, I feel the pump action has the initial advantage. Unlike, the semi, the pump can be grabbed, with the hands in shooting position and cycled as you bring it to your shoulder. Hopefully, you are never in a HD situation where that is necessary, but it is an advantage.

    For failure to fire malfunctions, the pump clears more quickly. Neophytes will sometimes forget to cycle the action of the pump after firing, a semi negates that.

    Ammo changeovers, are generally easier with a pump, however I think that is an unlikely event in the HD situation.

    Other than suggesting that you might want to avoid recoil operated semis, I would steer folks in the direction they are most comfortable - if you grew up hunting with a semi, choose a semi, if you grew up hunting with a pump choose a pump. If you are new to the shotgun become familiar with both, choose based on your perception of what you need.

    My choice for a HD shotgun is the 870 because of thousands of training rounds down the barrel of that platform. If you see me hunting, shooting clays, or practicing for 3 gun it is with a semi.
    Unlike my friends, I don't kill people for a living, nor have I. I would not want to be in a life or death situation where I could short-stroke the weapon. A quality semi-auto is pretty damn reliable. In fact, I have literally never had a malfunction with any of my M4's when shooting buck or slug, except when I FIIIRRSSTTT got one, and did not put a new mag spring in it when I went to a 7 shot tube, and inertia kept the last round in the mag in the tube instead of loading it. I have, however, short-stroked a pump gun before.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I disagree. I feel that the likelihood of a malfunction is far higher in a quality pump gun than in a quality semi-auto. This is because of short-stroking/user error under stress.
    I respectfully disagree. I ran training and qualifications for over 70 sworn for several years. I also participated in training hundreds of individuals at our main training facility. The last few years before we received authorization to purchase AR carbines, I saw a mixture of pump action and semi-automatic shotguns on the firing line. We had to purchase ammunition based on what would not malfunction in a semi-automatic shotgun.

    Short stroking a pump action shotgun, even under stress, is overstated by many. It's a training issue, not a weapon issue. I've seen semi-automatic shotguns malfunction (short stroke) when not held properly and shooting marginally powerful loads.

    Whichever action a person chooses to purchase, training is of paramount importance to an individual electing to utilize a shotgun for self defense.
    Last edited by T2C; 08-02-17 at 13:48.
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  9. #19
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    I have to agree with quality semi autos being more reliable than "quality" pumps (870s, 590s, etc).

    I've taken 8 or 9 shotgun classes in the last few years. Most classes are about 50/50 for pumps/semis, and the pumps have a consistently higher failure rate (not associated with short stroking). Most are due to FTE... I've seen 3 or 4 catastrophic failures in pumps, none in the semis.

    I've run the 1301 in the last 3 classes. The only malfunction I've ever had was toward the end of the second day of a class last June... it was blazing hot and it had been a while since i lubed it and i had a FTE. A little more lube and it ran fine the rest of the class. I still haven't thoroughly cleaned it (just a few wipe downs of the action and bolt, followed by a boresnake), just lube and shoot.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Last edited by SpyderMan2k4; 08-02-17 at 13:48.
    Owner of Aridus Industries. Creator of the Q-DC, CROM, ASA, and other fun shotgun things.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderMan2k4 View Post
    I have to agree with quality semi autos being more reliable than "quality" pumps (870s, 590s, etc).

    I've taken 8 or 9 shotgun classes in the last few years. Most classes are about 50/50 for pumps/semis, and the pumps have a consistently higher failure rate (not associated with short stroking). Most are due to FTE... I've seen 3 or 4 catastrophic failures in pumps, none in the semis.

    I've run the 1301 in the last 3 classes. The only malfunction I've ever had was toward the end of the second day of a class last June... it was blazing hot and it had been a while since i lubed it and i had a FTE. A little more lube and it ran fine the rest of the class. I still haven't thoroughly cleaned it (just a few wipe downs of the action and bolt, followed by a boresnake), just lube and shoot.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Were the malfunctions more prevalent with a particular make and model of pump action shotgun?
    Train 2 Win

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