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Thread: Defensive Shotgun: Speed or Capacity?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    Were the malfunctions more prevalent with a particular make and model of pump action shotgun?
    Probably more 870s but only because they make up a majority of the pumps. I've seen similar issues in 500s and 590s as well. Not every one, obviously, but enough that I'm comfortable saying "pumps aren't necessarily more reliable than quality semis."

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    Owner of Aridus Industries. Creator of the Q-DC, CROM, ASA, and other fun shotgun things.

  2. #22
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    OP, as to your question, while I lack much experience with semi-auto shotguns, I think either a good pump or a good semi-auto would be fast enough to suit your purpose, assuming you're skilled enough with the particular gun. As to capacity, I think even 4-5 rds may be enough for any reasonable scenario, though I keep 5 rds in the magazine and 6 more on the receiver using a Vang Comp carrier.

    I recommend you look very carefully at how you will attach a white light to any shotgun you do consider for HD use. A light is a must, IMO, on any HD long gun, and some setups are easier to use and more foolproof than others. I have old Surefire LM-series weaponlights on both my HD 870s, upgraded with Malkoff heads and M61L LEDS: excellent reliability, 170 lumens (just right for my house and eyes at night), no exposed wires to snag on anything, one integrated unit so I don't have to worry about the light working loose from the mount or the mount working loose from the forend, doesn't obscure my view of the threat, and user-friendly controls that don't beat up my hand or cause my hand to lose contact with the switch under recoil or while running the pump. Some shotguns just have much, much better options for a weapon-mounted light than others.

    Whatever you choose, get good training and practice frequently with the gun and the specific ammo you'll use for HD.
    Last edited by oldtexan; 08-02-17 at 15:41.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderMan2k4 View Post
    Probably more 870s but only because they make up a majority of the pumps. I've seen similar issues in 500s and 590s as well. Not every one, obviously, but enough that I'm comfortable saying "pumps aren't necessarily more reliable than quality semis."

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    During training evolutions, I've seen 750-1,000 rounds per day fired through 870's with rarely any issues. During a 32 hour course, a group will expend 3,000 - 5,000 rounds. It's been close to six years since I've been involved with a defensive shotgun course, so my experience is dated. It's quite possible that our contract 870's were built differently than the 870's people are bringing to courses.

    So I don't derail this thread, I started another thread to gather information on when the Remington 870 became so problematic. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-Remington-870
    Last edited by T2C; 08-02-17 at 17:12.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderMan2k4 View Post
    I have to agree with quality semi autos being more reliable than "quality" pumps (870s, 590s, etc).

    I've taken 8 or 9 shotgun classes in the last few years. Most classes are about 50/50 for pumps/semis, and the pumps have a consistently higher failure rate (not associated with short stroking). Most are due to FTE... I've seen 3 or 4 catastrophic failures in pumps, none in the semis.

    I've run the 1301 in the last 3 classes. The only malfunction I've ever had was toward the end of the second day of a class last June... it was blazing hot and it had been a while since i lubed it and i had a FTE. A little more lube and it ran fine the rest of the class. I still haven't thoroughly cleaned it (just a few wipe downs of the action and bolt, followed by a boresnake), just lube and shoot.

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    I've gone through numerous instructor certification courses with both pumps and semi's. Haven't had a problem with either. My professional instruction has predominantly been pump biased, absent a few classes which contained officers from agencies running Benellis.

    We started having problems with Remington 870 Expresses, primarily FTE's about 7 or 8 years ago IIRC. Primarily these were with weapons students brought, as we performed appropriate armorer service on our Academy shotguns regardless of mfgr. The cheap value-pack ammo students brought would occasionally give even our shotguns problems, that was more about ammo than the shotgun.

    The problems with the Express shotguns seemed to come to a head in conjunction with the availability of the value-pack ammo, so I think the problems were interrelated. I can tell you that using Federal buckshot and Federal slugs we had absolutely no problem with FTE's.

    Ultimately, I got chamber and forcing cone hones from Brush Research and fixed student shotguns that malfunctioned when I was on the range. It is a sad commentary when you have to do that, but it was the reality of the situation.

    Bottom line is the students that you remark upon having failures with the pump during classes probably had not really vetted the shotgun before attending, or were using valu-pack ammo.

    Regardless of whether you are using a semi or a pump you need to make sure it works.

  5. #25
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    Regarding OP's initial post regarding speed, I have timed plenty of shooters over the years that shot splits on multiples faster with pumps than shooters with semis. So a most of the utility in a fast cycling weapon can be lost if the shooter can't use it to it's capabilities.

    The 1301 is supposed to cycle a third faster than other semis, it needs a shooter that can utilize that speed.

  6. #26
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    Yeah-my original question isn't "what's faster". I know that I personally will shoot a semi auto faster than a pump... but that's me.

    My question involves choosing one feature over another, and that is the capacity versus speed.

    The reason I began asking myself this question was the result of my quest (research) for a new defensive shotgun. As I mentioned earlier, I was hell-bent on a quality semi-auto. As I researched the various high-quality semi-autos I discovered issues/concerns involving the models I was interested in. As a result I went back to the drawing board and started looking at platforms I previously wasn't interested in; mainly the high-capacity bull pup designs. This got me thinking:

    Is it more advantageous to be able to put seven rapid shots on target(s) (semi auto) or is it more advantageous to have 14 shells of 00 buck on board (bullpup)?

    Now I'm not even asking semi auto versus bullpup...I'm more curious to hear what members on this forum feel is more advantageous in a defensive shotgun between speed (rate of fire) versus capacity. Between those two features what do you think would provides the greatest advantage.

    I've seen some answers in the thread quoting statistics with regard to the low number of shots fired in the average defensive shotgun scenario. That's absolutely a legitimate consideration. On the other hand, one of the main drawbacks of the traditional shotgun is the low capacity and having to constantly feed it (as others have noted). If you ever are unfortunate enough to find yourself in a shootout requiring more than seven shells to neutralize the threat, having that additional fire power on board would be pretty comforting.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraken View Post
    My question involves choosing one feature over another, and that is the capacity versus speed.

    Is it more advantageous to be able to put seven rapid shots on target(s) (semi auto) or is it more advantageous to have 14 shells of 00 buck on board (bullpup)?
    22+1 if you can find one in stock:

    http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/...l/1103-1000FBC

    I have a buddy who bought one for three gun and the organizers promptly reduced the rounds for shotgun stages making it a moot purchase. He had the clear Benelli 1301 model. Problem is you need a 26 inch barrel so it really is not for those who want a shorter barrel.

    A side from hunting/clay shotguns, I've morphed to 21" and 24" barrels on my training/hd shotguns, so 26" is too long for me.

  8. #28
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    Just spend the money on the Benelli M4, be honest...everyone secretly desires a smoking hot Italian


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_pErm View Post
    Just spend the money on the Benelli M4, be honest...everyone secretly desires a smoking hot Italian


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    LOL - but he comes from the shop neutered. (See what I did there)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraken View Post
    LOL - but he comes from the shop neutered. (See what I did there)
    ...he can be restored

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