Defensive Shotgun: Speed or Capacity?

[JusticeM4]

Thanks for the responses-good dialogue.

I don't want the thread to devolve into a shotgun versus carbine debate. I do have a carbine (KAC SR15) that I train regularly with, so I have that niche covered. My question/interest relates directly to the shotgun platform - my current dilemma is rate of fire versus capacity.

As for my purposes with the shotgun: I intend it to be my one and only shotgun, so I don't have a problem spending money for quality. I'm not looking for a "jack of all trades", I'm looking for a defensive weapon in a shotgun platform. I'm not a three 3 gunner or a hunter. I'm not a high-speed operator nor am I a novice. I'm an average Joe living in suburban America who takes comfort in preparation and pleasure in training. (And I do intend to train with whatever platform I choose, so that advice is unnecessary). I don't have a specific threat that I am trying to account for (wouldn't it be nice to know the specific threats you need to prepare for in advance of the incident). Just the random freak sh!t that targets unfortunate souls.

Initially I had talked myself into an M4, that is until I began researching the R922 issues. I would end up spending an additional $1000 on top of the $2000 price tag to set that gun up as I would want it. I know I said I was willing to pay for quality, but I draw the line at being fleeced.

That got me looking at the Remington Versa Max tactical. (Similar gas system to the M4). The dealbreaker for me on the Remington is that it only comes in a 22 inch barrel. That's just too long for my purpose. Other than that I've seen a lot of great reviews with regard to that weapons reliability. If that model was offered as an 18 inch I likely would have purchased one already.

I've looked into the Beretta 1301. For the most part it appears to be a solid weapon, but the "fatal (double feed) flaw" had me second-guessing that choice. I may circle back to this option before I make my final decision.

I see a number of responses above that give no love to the KSG. I get that, Keltec does have a reputation. I recognize that it isn't a platform that has been adopted by military or law-enforcement. I don't necessarily see that as an indictment of the firearm personally. Historically both law enforcement and military have lagged behind the technological curve. I understand it is a bull pup design and will not operate like your standard 870 or 500-I'm OK with that, and like I said I intend to train with the weapon that I choose. While researching the platform I saw lots of Internet hate between 2011-2013. There doesn't seem to be nearly as much KSG internet hate since the second generation was released a couple years ago. I could be wrong-if you are a Second generation KSG owner still fostering some KSG hate tell me about your experience. My mind is wide open when it comes to this shotgun.

The current question I'm asking myself is whether I want the speed of a semi auto or the capacity of one of these "newfangled" bullpup shotguns. At this point in the search it's not even about the specific make/model but more the question of rate of fire versus capacity. I've argued myself into and out of all of the choices listed above at least once. I'm sure my mind will change several more times before I make up my mind. If there's additional input I'm all ears.

I enjoyed reading all of your responses above, thanks for taking the time.

Have you heard or would consider AK-type shotguns like the VEPR-12 and Saiga12?

They are Russian-made semiauto shotguns that are magazine-fed. I believe the mags come in 5rd, 10rd, 12rd, and drum mags (25rd?). They are a good combo or speed and reliability. I have owned a Saiga12 and it has been very reliable with any ammo I've shot with it (buckshot, birdshot, slugs). I use the 10rd and 12rd mags for home defense.
I haven't tried a VEPR12 but it is the same type of shotgun and is actually faster to load, and considered the better of the 2 shotguns overall.

The KSG is a cool bullpup, but it has its quirks. I've shot it a few times and it shoots like a basic pump shotgun but with way more capacity. If you can get used to it, that is a decent option (but not one I would buy personally).

Otherwise, a good standard semi-auto shotgun should do. The Benelli M4 and 1301 are the most popular models IIRC.

IMO you can't go wrong with the Saiga12 or VEPR12. They can still be found for $1000-1500 which is similar to the M4.

[SpyderMan2k4]

It's worth noting that keeping box mags loaded has been known to deform the rounds and cause issues (so I've read, i don't have any first hand experience).

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[SeriousStudent]

It's worth noting that keeping box mags loaded has been known to deform the rounds and cause issues (so I've read, i don't have any first hand experience).

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You are also not the only one I have heard say that. I was in a pistol class with a 3 gun shooter earlier this year who said the same thing, and he unloads his mags after every match.

[Kain]

You are also not the only one I have heard say that. I was in a pistol class with a 3 gun shooter earlier this year who said the same thing, and he unloads his mags after every match.

What types of deformation were being observed? I am curious. I know that you can grab a 12 gauge hull, my reloads are a good example, but factory will do this as well, but to a lesser extent, usually. and you can crush the front end enough to make chambering, well a bit difficult. Then again, I've also seen rounds that had been reloaded which actually developed a crease from too much downward pressure, that could chamber fine, though I wasn't too keen on firing them.

On a further note, I have also handled a good bit of loadings that the front end was mushroomed enough that they would not drop into a chamber smoothly, they could be pressed in and fired without issue, and with a manual action it might not even be noticed, but there could be the question as to whether an auto might have a slight issue with said ammo.

Last thought, and a bit of a devil's advocate here, box mags would limit ammo choice to what fits into the mag. While not a huge deal at first glance, I mean 2 3/4 12 gauge should all be 2 3/4 inch right? Not all ammo is, and there were a few loadings, S&B buck I think last year was getting a negative wrap for being a bit too long and decreasing tube capacity, I also heard some ejection issues as well with it. Also, if a loading is too short it might also have feeding issues in a mag a well, issues that might not be seen as much if at all in a standard pump or semi. Granted, vetting your gun with the ammo you plan to use and testing removes these issues, but I think it is worth noting. Still interested in the mag issue deforming rounds. I'd also be curious if a new shotgun round design couldn't improve on that. I think it would be worth discussing, though honestly, don't see a new shotgun gauge or cartridge being developed simply due to logistical issues, but another discussion for that.

[SeriousStudent]

What types of deformation were being observed? I am curious. I know that you can grab a 12 gauge hull, my reloads are a good example, but factory will do this as well, but to a lesser extent, usually. and you can crush the front end enough to make chambering, well a bit difficult. Then again, I've also seen rounds that had been reloaded which actually developed a crease from too much downward pressure, that could chamber fine, though I wasn't too keen on firing them.

On a further note, I have also handled a good bit of loadings that the front end was mushroomed enough that they would not drop into a chamber smoothly, they could be pressed in and fired without issue, and with a manual action it might not even be noticed, but there could be the question as to whether an auto might have a slight issue with said ammo.

Last thought, and a bit of a devil's advocate here, box mags would limit ammo choice to what fits into the mag. While not a huge deal at first glance, I mean 2 3/4 12 gauge should all be 2 3/4 inch right? Not all ammo is, and there were a few loadings, S&B buck I think last year was getting a negative wrap for being a bit too long and decreasing tube capacity, I also heard some ejection issues as well with it. Also, if a loading is too short it might also have feeding issues in a mag a well, issues that might not be seen as much if at all in a standard pump or semi. Granted, vetting your gun with the ammo you plan to use and testing removes these issues, but I think it is worth noting. Still interested in the mag issue deforming rounds. I'd also be curious if a new shotgun round design couldn't improve on that. I think it would be worth discussing, though honestly, don't see a new shotgun gauge or cartridge being developed simply due to logistical issues, but another discussion for that.

Dunno. It was a pistol class, and we were just chatting while jamming mags during a break. He was the only competitive shooter in the class, the rest were either federal LEO's or firearms instructors.

I asked him what he used for a shotgun, and he mentioned some Rooshin mag fed beast. I asked if he had ever had any issues with it, and he mentioned dropped mag feedlips (understandable) and leaving mags loaded.

Then we went back to the firing line and made pew pew noises.

[Kain]

Dunno. It was a pistol class, and we were just chatting while jamming mags during a break. He was the only competitive shooter in the class, the rest were either federal LEO's or firearms instructors.

I asked him what he used for a shotgun, and he mentioned some Rooshin mag fed beast. I asked if he had ever had any issues with it, and he mentioned dropped mag feedlips (understandable) and leaving mags loaded.

Then we went back to the firing line and made pew pew noises.

Interesting. Since I've been on a "I like to buy odd magazines." kick lately, I mean I bought a ****ing Bren gun mag that a friend is still asking why I bought it, maybe I'll grab a few 12 gauge VEPR mags to experiment with. Gives me a reason to buy another gun anyway.

As far as pew pew noises, I thought you carried like a subnose .38 or .357 they don't exactly go pew. More like BOOM "Ouch"

[Kraken]

Have you heard or would consider AK-type shotguns like the VEPR-12 and Saiga12?

They are Russian-made semiauto shotguns that are magazine-fed. I believe the mags come in 5rd, 10rd, 12rd, and drum mags (25rd?). They are a good combo or speed and reliability. I have owned a Saiga12 and it has been very reliable with any ammo I've shot with it (buckshot, birdshot, slugs). I use the 10rd and 12rd mags for home defense.
I haven't tried a VEPR12 but it is the same type of shotgun and is actually faster to load, and considered the better of the 2 shotguns overall.

The KSG is a cool bullpup, but it has its quirks. I've shot it a few times and it shoots like a basic pump shotgun but with way more capacity. If you can get used to it, that is a decent option (but not one I would buy personally).

Otherwise, a good standard semi-auto shotgun should do. The Benelli M4 and 1301 are the most popular models IIRC.

IMO you can't go wrong with the Saiga12 or VEPR12. They can still be found for $1000-1500 which is similar to the M4.

I've not considered the Saiga or VEPR style shotguns seriously...mainly because of the mixed reviews with regard to reliability. I'm also not sure how I feel about box mags in a shotgun platform due to the bulk. The drum mags are rediculous. I am however at square 1 so I'll give the platform a closer look.

[SeriousStudent]

Interesting. Since I've been on a "I like to buy odd magazines." kick lately, I mean I bought a ****ing Bren gun mag that a friend is still asking why I bought it, maybe I'll grab a few 12 gauge VEPR mags to experiment with. Gives me a reason to buy another gun anyway.

As far as pew pew noises, I thought you carried like a subnose .38 or .357 they don't exactly go pew. More like BOOM "Ouch"

I always have a 342 or 642 J-frame handy. But that's just my Rule 1 gun or BUG. My main carry is an old Gen2 G19 that I have had for 20+ years. Boringly reliable and very accurate with 124 grain +P Gold Dots.

[JusticeM4]

It's worth noting that keeping box mags loaded has been known to deform the rounds and cause issues (so I've read, i don't have any first hand experience).

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Well I have.


I've owned a Saiga 12 for more than 2yrs. It serves as one of my HD guns along with my AR. My mags stay fully loaded in the Saiga in the time I've owned it.

I use 10 and 12-rd mags and keep them loaded with an empty chamber. There is a slight deformation only on the top round, but not enough to hinder function or chambering.

This can be easily avoided by rotating your ammo about once a month. You can either shoot the ammo in the mags monthly, or just rotate the top round. I have 3 mags so for me, I just rotate each mag out every month.

I hope that clears up that issue. Shotgun ammo is so cheap that this should not be a problem with anyone. Shoot your shotgun once a month to train and rotate your ammo.

[JusticeM4]

I've not considered the Saiga or VEPR style shotguns seriously...mainly because of the mixed reviews with regard to reliability. I'm also not sure how I feel about box mags in a shotgun platform due to the bulk. The drum mags are rediculous. I am however at square 1 so I'll give the platform a closer look.

I recommend you take a look at them. They are very reliable shotguns and can still be found under $1500 or less. I was lucky that I bought my S12 before it was banned. Although I still see the VEPR under $900 locally.

Reliability is very good with both guns. The VEPR 12 is considered slightly superior by those who use them. I have not had any issues with my Saiga12 though in the entire time I've owned it. It may have a 'break-in' period as some may report, but mine worked from day 1.

As far as magazines, they have 5rd, 10rd, 12rd, and drum mags available. The 5rd mag is perfect for HD. I use 10 and 12rd mags. Its not really bulky per se, its just a little long. But its nice to have 10+1 or more rounds available if speed and capacity is what you're after.


This is the S12 with a 5-rd mag. Not really that long


And 10rd (pic from google)