Blackwater founder Erik Prince proposes privatizing Afghanistan war

[SteyrAUG]

We did exactly what the isolationist's say is the solution to everything last time, we left them the hell alone. We got 9/11, AQ, and ISIS in return.

Saying we suck at nation building doesn't make it always worse than the other options that suck.

No, we didn't.

The UN was unable to resolve the Iraq / Kuwait border / oil dispute and we refused to mediate because Kuwait was selling us oil really cheap. When Saddam Hussein was given the impression that he had a "go ahead" from the west to resolve the problem, George Bush I promptly backdoored him and effe'd up an alliance Reagan spent years building with the closest thing to a secular, modern government in the muslim world following the Iranian revolution.

In the process, we set up camp in Saudi which offended every fundamentalist group in the region. That combined with our withdrawl from Mogadishu emboldened our enemies who now perceived us as weak and vulnerable. Years of helping them get rid of the Russians were promptly forgotten and they began the plan against us seriously.

So had we not intervened in the Iraq / Kuwait oil dispute, had we not committed troops to UN nation building in Mogadishu 9-11 "might" never have happened. Of course we were still an ally of Israel which still made us the "great satan" but we had been the "great satan" for decades as far as the wahhabist were concerned.

You have a fair point with we can't always have the option of ignoring our enemies, but as soon as we dropped Saddam on a rope we were in a decent position to bring the troops home just as we did in the first Persian Gulf War, but Bush II was delusional enough to believe he could build a better nation. And in the process he created the jihad equivalent of woodstock and we've been babysitting those oil fields ever since so they aren't lost completely to Iran or some radical group like ISIS.

We need to stop looking at countries as individual nations and realize it's the muslim world. Even Sunni's and Shia will temporarily stop killing each other if the opportunity to kill Americans exists.

Additionally between expired student visas, foreigners from hostile nations in flight school who didn't care about learning to land, the previous attack on the WTC and lots of intel that was not shared between our intelligence community because they had a competition mindset...we had everything we needed to prevent the 9-11 attacks without ever going overseas. But starting with Bush I, when it comes to middle eastern policy and terrorism we've had one disaster of a President right after another, the jury is still out on Trump as far as effectiveness.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Afghanistan has been a shit show since the beginning of recorded time.

We're not the first to try and pet the burning dog, and won't be the last. Time to cut bait and admit that trying to sell the Afghans on democracy does not work. They want to be primitive tribals, they want to have sex with goats, they want to sodomize their chai boys, they want to be illiterate, and they want to beat their women. Some will fight to the death if needs be to defend those ideals. They don't want or understand democracy, so they're not buying.

If we need to have our way with them militarily again we can, we're good at that. We suck at nation building in 3rd world shit holes. Maybe, just maybe 3rd world shit holes like Afghanistan are that way because those places are full of shitty people?

And the powers at be won't resty until the US, UK, Germany, France, Australia, etc. have been routed by the modern day barbarians and they transform Western civilization into the same shit holes they left.

[Todd.K]

I was talking about Afghanistan specifically, not the entire ME. We gave them enough to fight off the Soviets in the 80's and then left them alone.

Afghanistan was the safe haven where AQ grew into an international terrorist group.

I don't claim to have all the answers here, I just think an at least semi stable Afghanistan is good for us.

[docsherm]

There are some very interesting takes on this. I wanted to see what direction this would run before I stepped in.

1st. Training combat units in a foreign war is WAR no matter what the @ssclown Obama said.

2nd. The US does suck at nation building. The reason is the US people are stupid. This is not just the average person on the street, I am also including those that are educated and those that think they are worldly and "in the know". Hint: Here is the answer to most of our foreign problems. THEY ARE NOT AMERICANS AND DO NOT THINK THE SAME WAY WE DO! The only reason that the US system works (that can be debated but not at this time) is because of a disproportionately large Middle Class. Now where else in the world does a Middle Class exist in the same way that it does in America. If the US would understand that we may be better at international relations. Trying to establish a democratic government in a place like Afghanistan is stupid. The culture (only haves and have-nots) is not even capable of understanding it. What the US should have done is follow suit with the culture and install our own benevolent dictator. That is the only system that those people understand. It would work and we would not have any more issue until they got too uppity, then they get removed in the same way that Noriega did, quick and simple. The issue is that the slack-jawed troglodytes in this country try to project our culture on everyone and think that would be reprehensible. This is not just American arrogance but also ignorance. The American people are so arrogant that they actually this that the way we think is the only way to think. The US needs to play the international game according to the rules of the area that they are playing in. If people can't stomach that then they need to stay home and leave it to those that understand the game and are willing to play by their rules. Many will respond that with " that isn't very Christian", well guess what? They are not Christians so stop projecting our culture and beliefs on other people that really do not care if you die in a horrible fiery death with all of your children or not.

3rd. They are not shitty people they are just different. Stop judging them on our cultural standards. We could learn some things from their culture. Like not letting other cultures come in and change ours. The people of Afghanistan have been invaded hundreds of times and each time they eventually win. The best part is that they have not changed their culture in the last 1,000 years. We can't say that in the last 50 years. In that case who is the shitty people?

4th. If it save us money and we accomplish the same goal then what would be the issue with the Prince Plan? Are people are afraid that they will go all "RavenWood" and kill off a bunch of people? That only is bad for the US when the government bows to those that complain to them. If they simple said, did you do some thing they did not like or not do something they said to do? Well then you brought it on yourself, tough SH%$. That what they understand and what they respect, power.


I wanted to add that I am not trying to attack anyone here or insult them. This is just a topic that I know a great deal about and am very passionate about.

[Caduceus]

Totally agree with number 3.

Our individual biases show when dealing with other cultures (also happens in archeology and anthropology, which was my college minor). No one likes being forced to change their history, heritage, and way of life (I'm looking at you, "the South will rise again!" types).

"My" culture is not the right, or only, culture. Also, people always **** up and confuse culture with race, which is often where our military and social stereotypes and attitudes arise from. (Case in point: i like fried chicken, mac n cheese, watermelon amd sweet tea. Is that southern cuisine, or "soul food?")

[JoshNC]

No, we didn't.

The UN was unable to resolve the Iraq / Kuwait border / oil dispute and we refused to mediate because Kuwait was selling us oil really cheap. When Saddam Hussein was given the impression that he had a "go ahead" from the west to resolve the problem, George Bush I promptly backdoored him and effe'd up an alliance Reagan spent years building with the closest thing to a secular, modern government in the muslim world following the Iranian revolution.

In the process, we set up camp in Saudi which offended every fundamentalist group in the region. That combined with our withdrawl from Mogadishu emboldened our enemies who now perceived us as weak and vulnerable. Years of helping them get rid of the Russians were promptly forgotten and they began the plan against us seriously.

So had we not intervened in the Iraq / Kuwait oil dispute, had we not committed troops to UN nation building in Mogadishu 9-11 "might" never have happened. Of course we were still an ally of Israel which still made us the "great satan" but we had been the "great satan" for decades as far as the wahhabist were concerned.

You have a fair point with we can't always have the option of ignoring our enemies, but as soon as we dropped Saddam on a rope we were in a decent position to bring the troops home just as we did in the first Persian Gulf War, but Bush II was delusional enough to believe he could build a better nation. And in the process he created the jihad equivalent of woodstock and we've been babysitting those oil fields ever since so they aren't lost completely to Iran or some radical group like ISIS.

We need to stop looking at countries as individual nations and realize it's the muslim world. Even Sunni's and Shia will temporarily stop killing each other if the opportunity to kill Americans exists.

Additionally between expired student visas, foreigners from hostile nations in flight school who didn't care about learning to land, the previous attack on the WTC and lots of intel that was not shared between our intelligence community because they had a competition mindset...we had everything we needed to prevent the 9-11 attacks without ever going overseas. But starting with Bush I, when it comes to middle eastern policy and terrorism we've had one disaster of a President right after another, the jury is still out on Trump as far as effectiveness.

Excellent points all around. We also learned nothing from our interactions with Saddam and the subsequent destabilization of Iraq. Look at Libya, Syria....the "Arab Spring". We continue to go down the rabbit hole of supporting regime change in countries with largely secular leaders, while supporting "rebels" who are aligned with various anti-West Islamist militant groups. It is insanity. We support "rebels" in Syria who are aligned with ISIS, while actively working against Assad - a man who is largely secular and who is motivated by money. One can reason with, negotiate with someone motivated by money. Not so with someone motivated by Islamic fundamentalism.

There are some very interesting takes on this. I wanted to see what direction this would run before I stepped in.

1st. Training combat units in a foreign war is WAR no matter what the @ssclown Obama said.

2nd. The US does suck at nation building. The reason is the US people are stupid. This is not just the average person on the street, I am also including those that are educated and those that think they are worldly and "in the know". Hint: Here is the answer to most of our foreign problems. THEY ARE NOT AMERICANS AND DO NOT THINK THE SAME WAY WE DO! The only reason that the US system works (that can be debated but not at this time) is because of a disproportionately large Middle Class. Now where else in the world does a Middle Class exist in the same way that it does in America. If the US would understand that we may be better at international relations. Trying to establish a democratic government in a place like Afghanistan is stupid. The culture (only haves and have-nots) is not even capable of understanding it. What the US should have done is follow suit with the culture and install our own benevolent dictator. That is the only system that those people understand. It would work and we would not have any more issue until they got too uppity, then they get removed in the same way that Noriega did, quick and simple. The issue is that the slack-jawed troglodytes in this country try to project our culture on everyone and think that would be reprehensible. This is not just American arrogance but also ignorance. The American people are so arrogant that they actually this that the way we think is the only way to think. The US needs to play the international game according to the rules of the area that they are playing in. If people can't stomach that then they need to stay home and leave it to those that understand the game and are willing to play by their rules. Many will respond that with " that isn't very Christian", well guess what? They are not Christians so stop projecting our culture and beliefs on other people that really do not care if you die in a horrible fiery death with all of your children or not.

3rd. They are not shitty people they are just different. Stop judging them on our cultural standards. We could learn some things from their culture. Like not letting other cultures come in and change ours. The people of Afghanistan have been invaded hundreds of times and each time they eventually win. The best part is that they have not changed their culture in the last 1,000 years. We can't say that in the last 50 years. In that case who is the shitty people?

4th. If it save us money and we accomplish the same goal then what would be the issue with the Prince Plan? Are people are afraid that they will go all "RavenWood" and kill off a bunch of people? That only is bad for the US when the government bows to those that complain to them. If they simple said, did you do some thing they did not like or not do something they said to do? Well then you brought it on yourself, tough SH%$. That what they understand and what they respect, power.


I wanted to add that I am not trying to attack anyone here or insult them. This is just a topic that I know a great deal about and am very passionate about.

Very well said.

[RobertTheTexan]

@docsherm
I think this is hitting the nail on the head, the bullseye, center mass etc. etc.

I remember my first overseas assignment. I went to a foreign country and actually expected the people to understand and speak English. Naive? Probably, but more arrogant than naive. Granted that is a sample of one, but I was surrounded by others that thought like that. In my unit and civilians back home. We have had few politicians who have been willing and capable to understand the culture of these countries outside the US. The all believe that bring in the American way is he best way. We've had battle commanders who have had a better understanding of the culture of the problem they are getting into gunfights with, far better than politicians who sent them there ever did. And when the gunfight stops the politicians step back in and fk everything back up again.

Oh on the part of our culture being diluted more and more each day? That's the arrow splitting the arrow. I could go off on a tangent here, but we are certainly losing the character and cultural identity that we had when our nation was formed. Makes me wonder if we could stand as many invading armies and still keep standing?

[Turnkey11]

I'd rather run a non-profit safeguarding Christian missionaries as they proselytize across that country. It would be a very target rich environment for a long time to come, and being a non-state entity may steer the jihadis focus away from the western countries for a while.

[Coal Dragger]

There are some very interesting takes on this. I wanted to see what direction this would run before I stepped in.

1st. Training combat units in a foreign war is WAR no matter what the @ssclown Obama said.

2nd. The US does suck at nation building. The reason is the US people are stupid. This is not just the average person on the street, I am also including those that are educated and those that think they are worldly and "in the know". Hint: Here is the answer to most of our foreign problems. THEY ARE NOT AMERICANS AND DO NOT THINK THE SAME WAY WE DO! The only reason that the US system works (that can be debated but not at this time) is because of a disproportionately large Middle Class. Now where else in the world does a Middle Class exist in the same way that it does in America. If the US would understand that we may be better at international relations. Trying to establish a democratic government in a place like Afghanistan is stupid. The culture (only haves and have-nots) is not even capable of understanding it. What the US should have done is follow suit with the culture and install our own benevolent dictator. That is the only system that those people understand. It would work and we would not have any more issue until they got too uppity, then they get removed in the same way that Noriega did, quick and simple. The issue is that the slack-jawed troglodytes in this country try to project our culture on everyone and think that would be reprehensible. This is not just American arrogance but also ignorance. The American people are so arrogant that they actually this that the way we think is the only way to think. The US needs to play the international game according to the rules of the area that they are playing in. If people can't stomach that then they need to stay home and leave it to those that understand the game and are willing to play by their rules. Many will respond that with " that isn't very Christian", well guess what? They are not Christians so stop projecting our culture and beliefs on other people that really do not care if you die in a horrible fiery death with all of your children or not.

3rd. They are not shitty people they are just different. Stop judging them on our cultural standards. We could learn some things from their culture. Like not letting other cultures come in and change ours. The people of Afghanistan have been invaded hundreds of times and each time they eventually win. The best part is that they have not changed their culture in the last 1,000 years. We can't say that in the last 50 years. In that case who is the shitty people?

4th. If it save us money and we accomplish the same goal then what would be the issue with the Prince Plan? Are people are afraid that they will go all "RavenWood" and kill off a bunch of people? That only is bad for the US when the government bows to those that complain to them. If they simple said, did you do some thing they did not like or not do something they said to do? Well then you brought it on yourself, tough SH%$. That what they understand and what they respect, power.


I wanted to add that I am not trying to attack anyone here or insult them. This is just a topic that I know a great deal about and am very passionate about.

I agree on almost all of this, but in response to bulletin point 3....

I understand the anthropologist practice of avoiding ethnocentric judgement of other cultures by applying the norms and values of your own society to a different society. For the purposes of dispassionate academic study this is a useful and necessary policy/practice. Outside of academia and understanding your enemy or potential allies I am not sure that such an outlook is all that useful.

In this instance I am personally more than comfortable declaring that overall Western civilization is superior to the culture of the Afghan people. So I will judge them by those standards, just as they judge us by their standards and reject our culture. I see no need to continue involvement in their backwards ass "country" and would be happy to leave them to their own devices as long as they leave us alone. If in the future they failed to leave us alone I would be perfectly happy if we killed every last man, woman, child, and dog in their country if that is what it took to prevent another conflict in the future.