On DD, rails, and what does one need on an AR

[chuckman]

On the DD/layoff thread there is a lot of discussion about their rails (which are excellent), and whether they are worth the cost. Factor into this, are they even needed? Some say a rail for "modularity" and widgets are a must-have, some argue they are not.

Then I saw a pic of cops in LV during the night of the shooting:

https://dallasnews.imgix.net/1506925...&q=60&fit=clip

Discuss.

[MegademiC]

Needed? Absolutely not.

I find an extended rail worth the cost, but not DD rails.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of threads about this already. The recent colt thread by eurodriver touches on it as well.

If you are on a budget, spend the money on ammo and a shot timer.
If $300 is not a big deal, and you want one, there is nothing wrong with rails.

[ghostly]

Rails are unnecessary for most applications. But some applications, the rifle is useless without them.

DD rails in particular, are very expensive. Oftentimes the juice is not worth the squeeze. There are better rails cheaper these days.


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[chuckman]

Rails have a place, sure. I was mainly speaking to the argument specific to DD (disclaimer: I own one, M4v1) and whether or not they are considered essential items, but of course the argument can be extended to any other accoutrement. In the pic the ARs appear to have a basic Magpul accessories and an Aimpoint.

[1168]

Ghostly pretty much summed up my feelings.

If one wants full length quad rail, the RISII is the one I would recommend, because I know it can take a beating. For me, cost is secondary to durability.

Now that mid-length rifles are a thing, 99% of users, including myself, would be better served with a midlength/fsb rifle with a MOE, or similar. Talking about guns that are not used in DMR/precision roles.

Going forward, most of my guns will be MLOK, or non-floating. Or both. The RISII that is on my favorite carbine currently is going to carry over to a SPR-ish setup I have planned, when I retire this carbine.

I like the RIS a lot, and feel it is well worth its price, but only if there is a requirement that it meets.

[Beat Trash]

On the DD/layoff thread there is a lot of discussion about their rails (which are excellent), and whether they are worth the cost. Factor into this, are they even needed? Some say a rail for "modularity" and widgets are a must-have, some argue they are not.

Then I saw a pic of cops in LV during the night of the shooting:

https://dallasnews.imgix.net/1506925...&q=60&fit=clip

Discuss.

It is important to distinguish the difference between a want and a need. The answer to that question depends on the intended usage of the gun.

The linked picture of the officer carrying a Patrol Rifle shows a gun designed around the needs of a LEO Patrol Rifle. A Colt 6920 with a quality white light and a sling would work, as is. Adding a quality RDS like an Aimpoint PRO really can help. By "quality" product, I do not mean something that you borrowed off of your kid's airsoft rifle.

You don't need a mid length gas system to be effective. Most Patrol Rifles out there in the field are carbine length gas systems. Is it nice to have? I think so. But it's not needed.

DD makes some outstanding FF rails. They are expensive, but the quality is there. Do you need it? Depends on what you're doing and what gear you need to attach. If you have a legitimate need for night vision and need an IR laser on your gun, then I would say that the FF rails are a need. As a person looking for a HD gun or a LEO setting up a Patrol Rifle, no, you don't need it.

With that said, I have the option of carrying a personally owned, departmentally approved rifle at work. I carry a DD V7lw. It has a mid length gas system, a 15" M-Lok ff rail, a Surefire scout and an Aimpoint T-2. Do I need this setup over what is shown in the photo linked from Las Vegas? Of course not. I carry it because I want the small advantages this setup brings to the table. My job is not that of a Uniform Patrol Officer, or a Beat Officer, and the small advantages I gain from my choice of Patrol Rifle are enough for me to justify carrying a personally owned gun, at my own expense.

Again, one must distinguish the difference between a want and a need. With that said, it's ok to want something more than a bare basic setup. So long as you don't try to fool yourself into believing that you need the modularity and widgets. Or that the additional modularity or widgets will compensate for a lack of skill or training.

[chuckman]

It is important to distinguish the difference between a want and a need. The answer to that question depends on the intended usage of the gun.

The linked picture of the officer carrying a Patrol Rifle shows a gun designed around the needs of a LEO Patrol Rifle. A Colt 6920 with a quality white light and a sling would work, as is. Adding a quality RDS like an Aimpoint PRO really can help. By "quality" product, I do not mean something that you borrowed off of your kid's airsoft rifle.

You don't need a mid length gas system to be effective. Most Patrol Rifles out there in the field are carbine length gas systems. Is it nice to have? I think so. But it's not needed.

DD makes some outstanding FF rails. They are expensive, but the quality is there. Do you need it? Depends on what you're doing and what gear you need to attach. If you have a legitimate need for night vision and need an IR laser on your gun, then I would say that the FF rails are a need. As a person looking for a HD gun or a LEO setting up a Patrol Rifle, no, you don't need it.

With that said, I have the option of carrying a personally owned, departmentally approved rifle at work. I carry a DD V7lw. It has a mid length gas system, a 15" M-Lok ff rail, a Surefire scout and an Aimpoint T-2. Do I need this setup over what is shown in the photo linked from Las Vegas? Of course not. I carry it because I want the small advantages this setup brings to the table. My job is not that of a Uniform Patrol Officer, or a Beat Officer, and the small advantages I gain from my choice of Patrol Rifle are enough for me to justify carrying a personally owned gun, at my own expense.

Again, one must distinguish the difference between a want and a need. With that said, it's ok to want something more than a bare basic setup. So long as you don't try to fool yourself into believing that you need the modularity and widgets. Or that the additional modularity or widgets will compensate for a lack of skill or training.

Excellent. I wish M4C had a 'like' button. My first M4 had the plastic handguards. The next, the KAC. Good enough for my mission; unlike the platoon designated marksman with the SAMR, who needed the bipod.

My home set-up, a 6920, has a MI drop-in KMR; my DDM4 has a light and VFG; my precision AR, set up entirely differently. All about the mission and the needs.

[Shooterman017]

It is important to distinguish the difference between a want and a need. The answer to that question depends on the intended usage of the gun.

The linked picture of the officer carrying a Patrol Rifle shows a gun designed around the needs of a LEO Patrol Rifle. A Colt 6920 with a quality white light and a sling would work, as is. Adding a quality RDS like an Aimpoint PRO really can help. By "quality" product, I do not mean something that you borrowed off of your kid's airsoft rifle.

You don't need a mid length gas system to be effective. Most Patrol Rifles out there in the field are carbine length gas systems. Is it nice to have? I think so. But it's not needed.

DD makes some outstanding FF rails. They are expensive, but the quality is there. Do you need it? Depends on what you're doing and what gear you need to attach. If you have a legitimate need for night vision and need an IR laser on your gun, then I would say that the FF rails are a need. As a person looking for a HD gun or a LEO setting up a Patrol Rifle, no, you don't need it.

With that said, I have the option of carrying a personally owned, departmentally approved rifle at work. I carry a DD V7lw. It has a mid length gas system, a 15" M-Lok ff rail, a Surefire scout and an Aimpoint T-2. Do I need this setup over what is shown in the photo linked from Las Vegas? Of course not. I carry it because I want the small advantages this setup brings to the table. My job is not that of a Uniform Patrol Officer, or a Beat Officer, and the small advantages I gain from my choice of Patrol Rifle are enough for me to justify carrying a personally owned gun, at my own expense.

Again, one must distinguish the difference between a want and a need. With that said, it's ok to want something more than a bare basic setup. So long as you don't try to fool yourself into believing that you need the modularity and widgets. Or that the additional modularity or widgets will compensate for a lack of skill or training.

This is a great summation of my thoughts as well.

I purchased a Knight's URX 3.1 right before Geissele handguards took off in popularity, and considered waiting to see more customer/hands-on input on the G rails before going with the URX. I didn't need a 15" handguard on a 16" carbine (like it was replacing), didn't need 1913 rail on all sides, and found myself wanting a more slim handguard (a la the URX 3.1). There were abbreviated 1913 rail sections, which suited my needs because there was no direct attachment method like Keymod yet. I needed 1913 rail to mount a light and bipod onto, just less of it. But, like ghostly said above:

There are better rails cheaper these days.

In my case...the ALG EMR was not available when I was trying to figure out what suits my needs and wants. Is it much different than the URX 3.1? Yes. Could I attain the same end result with that handguard as the URX? Essentially, yes. That URX works fine and there is zero reason for me to change what works...still mount a light and bipod, and still checks the box for being a little more slim than a tubular free float rail.

By "quality" product, I do not mean something that you borrowed off of your kid's airsoft rifle.

There are absolutely better options out there now for what we both need and want in a handguard, and this statement applies here as well. The ALG EMR V2 (which has an integral 1913 rail section for a front sight to mount) would suit my needs much better now than the URX. It's suitably 'thin' for my preference, and doesn't have a ton of rail on it I will never use, and even though a much lower price than the URX, it's still a quality product. It would do the same job if not better, for what my use of that carbine is.

[Coal Dragger]

Personally I like rails on AR's and wouldn't leave a non free floated AR in that state. I live in a very rural area with wide open spaces, so I appreciate the extra precision that a free floating barrel affords the AR. For the same reason I really like Geissele 2 stage trigger. For my most likely uses free floating the barrel and putting a good trigger on the rifle are the best upgrades I can make. That is considering that optics are a given. If pressed to be able to have only 2 of those accessories it would be optics, and a Geissele 2 stage trigger. As soon as funds allowed though, a free floating rail would go on.

As for what rails to use, well I have a RIS II with the front sight cutout for a carbine length gas system. It's on a factory built Colt M4A1. No doubt the rail is very well made, tough, and versatile with all the 1913 real estate for those who need it. It is also heavy, bulky, and because it is made to accommodate the FSP and bayonet lug it allows your bare fingers to contact the bayonet lug where there is a cutout for it on the bottom. Not a big deal until the barrel gets hot, then it can be really unpleasant. As a piece of firearms history it's pretty cool and being on a limited production Colt I'll never change it out, but it's not an ideal Rail that everyone seems to think they are.

My other AR worth mentioning in a DDM4 V11 Pro with the 15" Slim rail in Keymod. I like this one quite a bit for the simple fact that it is slim, easy to attach accessories to with Keymod adapters where desired, and at 15" long allows plenty of area to grasp the fore end, additionally the added length gives more sight radius to my BUIS.

I suspect the best rails on the market right now are the Geissele series and the KAC offerings, just due to how rigid both are in their mounting to the upper.

[grizzlyblake]

I see a lot of DD guns set up with the DD fixed sights on the rails. How much of a concern is it to have the barrel free floated from a fixed iron sight, when compared to a FSP on the barrel?

It would seem the increased sight radius would add an advantage over a standard FSB, but I don't know if that's offset by the railed sight not being attached to the barrel.