Falling In Love with the AK, Losing that Loving Feeling for

[m4brian]

I’ve not shot an AK like anyone in industry, but I haven’t seen them choke but on a bad mag (promag) or a squib. I have seen ARs choke. All in normal conditions. I would trust an AK more in reliability every time. It’s not a myth, but I realize it isn’t the legend either.

[RetroRevolver77]

The "AK Reliability" thing is actually kind of nuanced. More tolerant, to a degree, of contaminants and lack of maintenance? Yes, absolutely. More reliable in normal conditions with even a minimal lubrication schedule? No, actually significantly worse than a good (mil-spec, not 'great') DI AR, from a lot of rounds in mag testing, and that includes Russian built guns, bulgarian built guns, yugos, and rommys. That doesn't include customs from someone like Krebs or Fuller (didn't have the heart to destroy them in high volume testing), but does include proper, arsenal-built guns with both com bloc mags. That's one of the things we sought to address with the AK PMAG program was to get reliability numbers (MRBS) up to what a good AR with a GEN M3 PMAG will do.

I don't know, in my experience AK's are the most reliable rifles I've ever owned. If they get dust or sand in them just make sure the hammer can reset and the bolt can go fully into battery.

74 filled with sand.



7n6

[BlahBlah]

I grew up in the Cold War era. I was 12 when Red Dawn came out and, looking back, it kind of shaped my view of guns. I grew up in rural communities hunting and shooting, but I'd never really grasped the whole "defense against enemies, foreign and domestic" angle of gun ownership until Red Dawn (and a couple other movies of that era). So I guess I have sort of a sentimental view of the AK, but I always put off buying one.

I went through a pretty serious BRD phase. At one point I think I owned 16 different ARs, all different configurations and a bunch of different calibers, but I still never bought an AK. I walked past crates of them in the gun shop selling for $250 and always thought, "I'll get one eventually." Then all the panics kicked in and the import restrictions tightened up. Those $250 AKs were going for triple that and they were getting harder to find by the day. I finally broke down and got one, a WASR. I made sure to get one with good rivets and straight sights. Nothing fancy, but it was within my budget at the time.

It sat in my gun safe for (literally) years, unfired.

I'll admit that it was Magpul's release of their AK mags and furniture that "got me off the X" with my AK. Not because it was "tacticool" but because Magpul has made their name on ergonomics, durability and reliability. So I dolled-up my WASR with some fancy new Magpul stuff and FINALLY started shooting it. That's when I realized what I'd been missing all those years. I've since changed out the trigger, changed the safety lever and added a red-dot, and the "AK experience" has improved even more.

Will it ever replace my SHTF AR? Probably not, but I am keeping an eye out for a decent deal on another one.

[Rayrevolver]

Did you have any issues with the Polish magazines? They are narrower than the Bulgarian ones.

7n6

Finally got the Polish Beryl mags (green/translucent) and also an additional Bulgy (10) (translucent). From an ease of use standpoint, the Beryl mags fit great with a little movement while installed. The Bulgys take effort to get into the mag well and then effort to get locked into place. I read about that and will work them a bunch to wear them in. Once locked in, they are very solid.

All the new mags are feeding dummy rounds without any issues. Hopefully get to the range this weekend to shoot this again.

As an aside, you guys see the news that Wolf is bringing the 9x39 round to the US? How cool would a VSS Vintorez clone be? We can call it the Honey Badgerski.

[RetroRevolver77]

Oh yah and here's why an AK is the best overall for a survival rifle.




7n6

[ramairthree]

There is nothing wrong with loving AKs.

In the era of snapped closes pouches on your LCE,
Nothing fancier than a jungle sling, a maglight taped to the handguard,
And fixed carry handle sights, with a possible scope,
Old school training did not give up near as much ergonomics, speed, customization, etc. as they do now.

There was not as much advantage for the AR over the AK platform then.
And, there was a higher MF rate in the mags/followers of the day than their is now.

Plus, Sub $200 AKs with 75$ / 1000 ammo with a couple bucks per mag was a great deal.

There was this sweet spot for a while where the AK was very attractive financially, with an edge in reliability, and not giving up as much in tactics, ergonomics, and accesorization.

Those days are over.
But not having a great time with and AK and being familiar with it,
Is sort of like not having a great time with a large displacement Carbeurated V8 with non overdrive manual transmission.

[Aries144]

I used 5.56 AK-74 pattern rifles for years in 2gun competition and did very well. In matches that focused more on thinking on your feet and overcoming physical challenges and weather rather than stage memorization, planning, and pure speed, I found the AK didn't hamper performance enough in most situations to keep me from winning or consistently making the top 5. My AK's barrel unexpectedly took a massive dive in precision (from 2-3 MOA to 6+ MOA) at around 6-7k rounds though, and I had to switch to an AR15 backup. I ended up using the AR for my remaining two years of competition because money had become tight and I couldn't afford to pay someone to do everything necessary to fix the AK.

The limitations I noticed with the AK compared to an AR15 were:

1. No warning when you're out of ammo and longer mag change time. I dislike this the most. It's disconcerting when you get busy dealing with other problems, forget your ammo situation, are suddenly presented with an unexpected target, say as you come around a blind corner, and get "click" when you expected "bang."

2. Front heavy. This isn't a big deal until you run a suppressor. Try doing a few hours of drills with it and you'll see what I mean. It sucks.

3. Parts replacement is a gunsmith level affair. Replacing a barrel requires access to big tools that you can't have if you live in an apartment. Replacing a bolt can mean having to repress, redrill, and repin your barrel to properly headspace. My SLR-106 is a frankengun that needs to have the replacement barrel's journal turned down on a lathe before I can even start.

4. Adding optics is not an optimal compromise. The Ultimak works great, but adds more front-end weight to an already front-heavy gun. The TWS topcover may be improved now, but mine had significant unpredictable zero shift every time the top cover was opened and closed and the owner that I spoke with on the phone and later corresponded with via email wasn't really interested in hearing that. The side rail mount is probably the best way to go here, unfortunately the newer lightweight, minimalist, aluminum optic mounts weren't available then. That's definitely how I'd do it now.

5. Iron sights are functional, but sub optimal. I noticed consistent issues with POA/POI issues in certain light conditions as they changed my perception of what was "aligned." Definitely slower until you're close enough that precision doesn't really matter. I had no such issues with peep type sights.

6. May require some significant effort to suppress. My SLR-106FR had frequent bolt-over-base malfunction with a suppressor fitted. Either a special (heavier and/or louder) suppressor was needed, or else some method of restricting the gas.

Benefits I noticed most were:

1. Malfunctions are easier to clear. I once had a bad magazine launch live rounds out of the ejection port along with spent cases for a whole stage. I had to rack the bolt handle once because I had an empty chamber. The top cover can be easily removed to clear anything that's gotten into the receiver. In 6 or so years with two different 5.56 AKs in talcum-powder-like dust, rain, and mud, I never had a malfunction that required more than racking the handle to continue.

2. Magazine changes are very positive, once they've been properly learned. I've never seen someone put a magazine in an AK and then have the mag drop after firing a round because they failed to fully lock the mag in place. Happens a lot to push-in type mags when users get fatigued and overly busy.

3. The parts are all very durable. I have little doubt that the average AK's parts will all last as long as the barrel. (The problems start when they DO wear out or break prematurely, as I mention above.)

4. For me, aesthetics. I think the AK-74M has the looks over the AR15. The AR looks like a bunch of glued together plumbing components to me.

Final thoughts:

As tools purely for functional efficiency and long-term use for civilians in the United States, I think the AR15 has an advantage, especially regarding maintenance. Furthermore, a suppressed 16" lightweight-barreled AR15 is about the same fatigue factor to carry and use as an unsuppressed AK-74 type.

For fun, history, a look into the enemy's weapon, faster split times than a comparably as-issued AR15 type, and a thoroughly pleasant shooting experience, I think the AK-74 type comes out ahead.

[PattonWasRight]

^^^ Great addition to the thread, thank ya

[RetroRevolver77]

I used 5.56 AK-74 pattern rifles for years in 2gun competition and did very well. In matches that focused more on thinking on your feet and overcoming physical challenges and weather rather than stage memorization, planning, and pure speed, I found the AK didn't hamper performance enough in most situations to keep me from winning or consistently making the top 5. My AK's barrel unexpectedly took a massive dive in precision (from 2-3 MOA to 6+ MOA) at around 6-7k rounds though, and I had to switch to an AR15 backup. I ended up using the AR for my remaining two years of competition because money had become tight and I couldn't afford to pay someone to do everything necessary to fix the AK.

Were you running these 106's with steel jacketed/steel cased ammo? I've found the same thing with 74's and 106's myself but usually around 8-10K the groups would open up though still functional. This being caused by throat erosion which I know steel jacketed ammo does greatly increases that wear. I remember reading a Lucky Gunner article about running steel jacketed ammo vs standard copper through AR's finding similar results.

The 106 is a hybrid, it uses a lot of parts off the milled Bulgarian 5.56NATO 47 pattern line and stamped Bulgarian 74 pattern line. The thought when we designed it was to use a combination of 74 pattern and milled 47 pattern components to create a "100 series stylized" rifle. The Bulgarians already made barrels in 5.56, bolts in 5.56, and magazines. So combined the main components turning down the 47 pattern barrel from 23mm to 22mm to build onto a stamped receiver with modified 74 trunnion with 5.56 bullet guide, 74 folding stock, 74 front sight block populating the rest of the barrel with the combo 47/74 90 degree gas block, 47 style rear sight block and you basically get the SLR 106.

FYI- Larry likes them, here is his Arsenal SLR 106CR.





7n6

[Aries144]

Were you running these 106's with steel jacketed/steel cased ammo? I've found the same thing with 74's and 106's myself but usually around 8-10K the groups would open up though still functional. This being caused by throat erosion which I know steel jacketed ammo does greatly increases that wear. I remember reading a Lucky Gunner article about running steel jacketed ammo vs standard copper through AR's finding similar results.

Yes. Brown Bear and Wolf, mostly. Went from 2+ MOA with Prvi Partizan 75gr match to 7+ MOA with everything seemingly overnight. Only 6-7k rounds for me.

I no longer shoot steel case in anything that has an expensive, difficult to replace, or rare barrel.

It's discouraging to hear that 5.45 is doing it too. At least no lathing necessary for those replacement barrels.

Western military ball in 5.56 is much easier on barrels it seems.