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Thread: Considering S&B Short Dot

  1. #1
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    Considering S&B Short Dot

    I posed this question a while back, however, I thought it pertinent to start a new thread as I have a few more questions. I initially bought a T2 for my KAC SR-15 Mod 2 with 16in barrel, however, I’ll be submitting a Form 1 for the lower and will be placing the T2 on a Mod 2 CQB upper.

    I recently was messing around with a buddies BCM MK12 with a Vortex Razor Gen II 1-6 on it and it got me hooked on the LPV again. Then earlier today I had the opportunity to look through another buddies K16i and it really blew my mind.

    I understand the Vortex is a top shelf optic, however, my heart really desires an S&B or a Khales? Why? I’m not really sure. Perhaps it’s their great Teutonic heritage, perhaps it’s because I’ve always wanted a Short Dot; and if I’m going to throw down my hard earned Kopeks, I want there to be nothing left to be desired.

    I’m considering the S&B PMII 1.1-4x20 and the 1-8x24 as well as the Khales K16i. Money is not a factor as I’m going to buy whatever the best option is and if I have to save another month or two it’s no big deal as I already have a rifle with a functioning, quality optic on it.

    I’m currently leaning strongly towards the S&B offerings becasue:

    A) External adjustable and locking turrets
    B) I’ve always wanted a Short Dot

    Unless someone(s) can offer me a compelling reason to go with a K16i over the Short Dot, my preference is towards S&B.

    What is the major difference between the different models of Short Dot 1-8 product lines? The S&B website is somewhat confusing as it as some labeled 1-8 CC and others not, however, it looks as though in the description they all have the CC function.

    As far as magnification goes, I had a TR-24 for years with the triangle and never found 4 power to leave me wanting more on a 16in rifle and I also liked that it was second focal plane.

    Is there any reason to go with the 1-8 over the 1-4 other than the greater magnification? Does the 24mm objective offer any more light transmission or a substantially better FOV than the 20mm on the 1-1-4?

    The biggest thing that has me looking at either model of S&B over the Khales is the externally adjustable, locking turrets. That’s a feature I really like.

    All three are daylight bright, all three are quality glass, all three have great reticles. First vs second focal plane is something I can give or take, however, I think I have a slight preference towards second focal plane.


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  2. #2
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    Having used the original Short Dot 1.1-4x, the newer Short Dot gen 2 in 1.1-4x and the Kahles K16i.

    I would go with the Kahles K16i with the G4 B reticle even though it does not have external locking turrets, you can check how the reticle BDC lines match with your loads.

    Current scope that I am using now is the Swarovski Z8i, but for more demanding/tough use, I would probably opt for the Kahles.

  3. #3
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    The S&B product line is an absolute mess IMO. It makes it very hard to sort through. Before I bought my Z8i, I looked pretty throughly at S&Bs offerings. The reticle selection is very disappointing. Something like a plain P3 mildot combined with the flashdot would be ideal, but instead you just get skelonitized mildot variants which aren’t useful at low magnification. I once owned a PMII 1-4x24 with the P3; and why they didn’t carry this into the 1-8s is beyond me. If I remember right the P3 was an option on the 34mm 1.5-8, but that’s a lot more weight and bulk than I want on a 5.56 rifle. I ended up going with the Z8i after much deliberation, and couldn’t be happier. Without boring you with a product list, is the most impressive optic I’ve owned. I urge you to give them a hard look.

  4. #4
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    My Z8i 1-8 showed up today and my initial impression is I couldn't be happier! The FOV is huge, dot is very bright, very use-able reticle, and 30mm tube isn't too bulky for 5.56 (I don't like 34mm on 5.56). I looked at everything under the sun and was originally going for the K6i 1-6 after looking at and testing several. I'm not worried about locking or tactical turrets, would if it was on a .308, .260 Rem, 6.5 CM. I personally wouldn't worry about locking and or tactical turrets unless you plan on shooting over 500 yards often. However, I already have a MSTN Mk12 Mod 2 with a NF 2.5-10x42 to fill that role. This is going on a 16" build for me. I wouldn't hesitate to get the Kahles either but I jumped on DSG's sale on Z8i's last week!

    On a side note, I've looked at S&B's version of their 1-8 scope at every SHOT show I've been to since 2012 and always have walked away wanting more...for whatever that is worth. I've also been hoping/waiting that vortex will make a trimmed down LPV 1-6 or 1-8 in their AMG line but just didn't want to wait any longer.
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  5. #5
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    That's a tough call between some excellent scopes. I am not familiar with the Z8i but, I have used some of the other Kahles models. As to the Short Dot, I own the S&B 1-4 CQB 20mm model. It's mounted in an ADM Scout mount on a 5.56 carbine with a 16" stainless Noveske barrel. I have given thought to buying the 1-8 SD 24mm, particularly when they came up on sale at one of the larger retail outlets (I forget which).

    I see it this way, if you are looking for a general use optic to use for target shooting at distances past 200 yards, them the 8 power would be very useful. Otherwise, if you want one of the most durable, combat proven, low powered optics, with a bright red dot, to use at shorter ranges, then the 1-4 SD CQB would be the better choice.

    If you haven't owned a low powered optic, I would recommend trying one of the Vortex PST II 1-6 or 1-4 Gen I first to make sure it's what you want.

    The only negative comments regarding the Short Dot 1-4 CQB 20mm are that it's expensive, heavy, and limited range at distance. I usually use mine at 100-200 yards on paper targets and at steel targets at 200/ 300 yards. It is not a precision optic, for dedicated target shooting, a 1-8 or something stronger will work better. Another optic you may consider checking-out is the NF 2-10 24mm or 32mm as well.

    http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/pr...-shortdot.html

    Less expensive alternative to try-out

    https://www.americandefensemanufactu.../product/1281/


    P.S. One thing that I find curious is that I haven't seen anyone using the S&B 1-8 CQB 24mm.

  6. #6
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    I looked through a friend's 1-8 SD not long ago and was very disappointed. The skeletonized mildot reticle is terrible on 1x. The CC mode is nice, but the flash dot was not nearly bright enough IMO. Not that it couldn't work, just that the Kahles, Steiner m1-4x, Steiner t5x 1-5x, and Vortex razor HD 1-6 are much much brighter. Glass is of course great. Turrets are very nice.

    No time on the Swarovski z8i, though it intrigues me.

    I love the Kahles k16i with sm-1 reticle. Slippers should be along to weigh in on the Kahles.
    Last edited by JoshNC; 10-10-17 at 23:18.
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  7. #7
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    If one has a hankering for dot brightness, the Z8i is retinal toasting bright on its highest setting.

    On turrets, the Z8i capped still have great clicks and are very positive with the right amount of throw between clicks. I haven't used the external add-ons, but the capped remind me of the TR24 in their function.

    On the S&B 1-4, the x20 and x24 are different animals. IMO, the x24 is the later and superior design. But, again this hankers back to my previous post. The S&B product line is messy AF.

    From what I've experienced among the optics i've owned, is that the ocular lens diameter plays a HUGE role in the usability of the scope. Not the know S&B in this regard, but there are many other players in this game *NF* that could use an update.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshNC View Post
    I love the Kahles k16i with sm-1 reticle. Slippers should be along to weigh in on the Kahles.
    My first k16i had a canted reticle, but kahles/swarovski was quick to replace it and the new one seems great. So far I've only used it on a belt fed machine gun, but I wouldn't mind having a second for use on a carbine.

    I do wish the turrets were a little nicer; I'm used to Nightforce turrets, which have very crisp adjustment. It's not a big deal since they're capped on the kahles, but one of those things where I expected them to be better considering the price.

    I can't help but feel that the k16i is a little too expensive for what you get, even though it ticks all the right boxes (good reticle, daylight bright illumination, 17 oz, excellent field of view, forgiving eye box).
    Will - Owner of Arisaka LLC - http://www.arisakadefense.com

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippers View Post
    So far I've only used it on a belt fed machine gun, but I wouldn't mind having a second for use on a carbine.
    I hate you and Josh.

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