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Thread: AR reliability. Riddle me this.

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    A few things....

    1) The "not developed here bias" myth - The evidence for this myth just isn't there for the US Ordnance Department. The Krag, the M1895 MG, the Benét–Mercié, the M1911, the Vickers M1916 MG, the M1917 MG, and the M1918 BAR were all designed outside the US Arsenals by private firms or individuals, further just about all of the fore-mentioned weapons were competing against other private designs, such as the .45 cal Savage, the .45 cal Luger, the Lewis MG, the FAL and all the various semi-automatics entered in the semi-auto rifle competition that resulted in the M1 Garand. Weapons designed internally to the Ordnance Dept are really the minority.* The reason the Ord Dept initially did not like the AR-15 was they did not feel that the weapon was fully developed, and felt that it would be about 5 to 10 years before it was fully developed (and this turned out to be true, it wouldn't be until 1969 before all the wrinkles in the weapon and ammunition were ironed out). Further, the Light Rifle Program, that yielded the M14 had taken over 12 years to get a new rifle in production, and had cost far more than anticipated, they weren't about to admit, that after all this time and money, they adopted the wrong rifle, especially when they felt they hadn't. Besides, the SPIW was going to be the M14's replacement, when that program was finished.

    2) He alludes one of reasons the M16 was frowned upon was the potential loss of jobs at Springfield and Rock Island. One, Rock Island had ceased being a production facility by the time of WW2 and Springfield was never intended to be a volume producer of the M14, they were supposed to cease production after the design was matured and proven to be producible. The only reason they got additional production contracts was because production from the two intended producers, Olin and H&R fell so far behind schedule.

    3) Port pressure and Ball propellant. The ball propellant was not old stocks from WW2, Olin's St Mark's facility had been making ball propellant for 7.62mm NATO for years, this was the stuff introduced for M193. As to the port pressure, nobody had even looked at the port pressure for the AR-15/M16 before 1964-5. Nobody had any idea what the optimum port pressure should be or even was with IMR propellant. And further, they (Armalite/Colt, Olin, and Springfield) overlooked some basic principles when they adopted ball propellant as a replacement of the IMR propellant:

    The area under the Pressure-Time curve (see the example below) from primer ignition to bullet exit is the muzzle velocity. With IMR propellant, the peak pressure was anywhere from 52,000 to 60,000 psi, They wanted to reduce the peak pressure, but maintain the muzzle velocity, which means the area under the curve has to remain the same. So, if you push the peak of the curve down, but keep the area under the curve the same, that means the rest of the curve has to go up. That means the port pressure has to increase. This fact was obvious to some of the engineers in the Ord Dept, but ignored by the OSD's TCC.



    Incidentally, all of the information I have presented in all of my posts comes from Edward Ezell and R. Blake Stevens' "The Black Rifle", which is very well referenced, and has many excepts from the actual reports from the period, and quotes from interviews with many of the principal figures, and from reading the full reports called out in the book's bibliography, many of which are available through DTIC.

    ______________________________
    * What Springfield, and Rock Island mostly did was take designs offered to the Government, test them and if they showed merit, recommended tweaks to refine the design to meet requirements. Which is exactly what they did with the M16.


    Thanks for the clarifications!
    I have to say, the parts I found most interesting was the specific design modifications, buffer, disconnect, etc. I learned a few interesting things about the design.
    This is a bit off topic but...
    I also find the pressure curves very interesting, especially since I am a reloader, and I reload for more auto loaders than just my ARs. I have thought about it some, but this has made me think even more about it. With all the hot, and really soft loads; using various different burning powders, I have yet to have a malfunction from one of my hand loads in an auto loader. I think that it is interesting the wide variety of ammo my guns will eat up with no problems.
    Right now I'm running about 25.6 - 26 gr of Ramshot Tac with 60-64gr bullets as a go to. For the past few weeks I have been thinking a lot about powder burn characteristics, and trying to find something that works great all around for a fair price.

  2. #82
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    I'm new here and to ARs. This is a very interesting thread and I have seen the video. Question: even with a mil spec chrome lined barrel and BCG, would a lubricant designed for corrosion control be of benefit in terms of reliability? I use CLP and LP (a Breakfree product to lubricate and protect after cleaning). Would it be beneficial in terms of reliability to go to a product like Corrosion X ???????---Just to make sure?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bullseye View Post
    I'm new here and to ARs. This is a very interesting thread and I have seen the video. Question: even with a mil spec chrome lined barrel and BCG, would a lubricant designed for corrosion control be of benefit in terms of reliability? I use CLP and LP (a Breakfree product to lubricate and protect after cleaning). Would it be beneficial in terms of reliability to go to a product like Corrosion X ???????---Just to make sure?
    Long answer...

    I've used motor oil for everything gun related for the past few years, and not a spec of rust anywhere, I believe fancy gun oils are an overpriced gimmick. 1 quart of motor oil will last years, and costs a fraction as much as gun oil. As long as you lube your rifle it will function fine. These pictures provide a good guideline for every deep cleaning... I only deep clean my guns after a few hundred to 1000 rounds. Your aluminum receivers won't rust either. If you live near the ocean or somewhere very humid, I would clean/ lube it more often. I have almost no humidity where I live, and have some guns I put a light coat of motor oil on 2-3 years ago, and they don't have a spec of rust.

    Short answer, no some expensive gun oil will not make your gun more reliable, as long as you lube it properly with your lube of choice ( in your case clp ) it will function just fine.



    1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg



    ETA: not trying to say any quality lube is better than the other. Just saying as long as a quality lube is properly used the rifle will be just fine.
    Last edited by 5.56 Bonded SP; 10-16-17 at 19:46. Reason: lube war

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bullseye View Post
    I'm new here and to ARs. This is a very interesting thread and I have seen the video. Question: even with a mil spec chrome lined barrel and BCG, would a lubricant designed for corrosion control be of benefit in terms of reliability? I use CLP and LP (a Breakfree product to lubricate and protect after cleaning). Would it be beneficial in terms of reliability to go to a product like Corrosion X ???????---Just to make sure?
    I don't think anything crazy like that is necessary. I've lived in Florida and Alabama the entire time I've owned ARs and all I do is wipe the outside of the barrel down with some CLP every now and again. I haven't had rust problems anywhere else, but that is probably because I run my guns pretty wet.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinlessorrow View Post
    It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a unlined, bare steel bore and chamber in a jungle environment will rust if not cleaned. So lets not issue cleaning kits and tell the soldiers the guns need no maintenance!

    It was a double down of derpage.
    Ahh, what 50 years of hindsight blinds us from.....

    In 1960, nobody had ever chrome plated a .22 caliber bore. And, chrome plating a bore in more than just sticking it in a plating bath....

    When the AR-15 was first proposed to the Army, they did note the fact that it did not have a chrome plated bore, and Springfield advised that funds should be allotted to develop the techniques to provide the AR-15 with a chrome plated bore and chamber just like the M14 and M60.

    Reportedly acting on the advice of Gene Stoner, who claimed that the AR-15 bore and chamber needed no further improvement, OSD vetoed the Springfield recommendation. (The Black Rifle, Stevens and Ezell, page 218)
    The technical difficulty in uniformly chrome plating such a small diameter hole, that is also very deep, is the reason only the chamber was initially plated.

    While rusting and pitting were problems, the real culprit to the "stuck cases" was poor control of the case hardness. According to Bill Davis, the drawing specifications for the case were very vague on this point. Incidentally, this is the reason that Russian steel ammo causes problems, it is not an inherent problem with steel, it is an inherent problem with soft cases.
    Last edited by lysander; 10-16-17 at 20:06.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bullseye View Post
    I'm new here and to ARs. This is a very interesting thread and I have seen the video. Question: even with a mil spec chrome lined barrel and BCG, would a lubricant designed for corrosion control be of benefit in terms of reliability? I use CLP and LP (a Breakfree product to lubricate and protect after cleaning). Would it be beneficial in terms of reliability to go to a product like Corrosion X ???????---Just to make sure?
    You already have all the chemicals you need to keep your AR running well. CLP alone is also fine. Check out the lube point pics BondedSP posted above. If you feel like it, use a copper solvent in the bore once in awhile, but its not for reliability.

  7. #87
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    In today's modern, quality AR's, it's not really an issue. Like others have said, just keep it generously lubed and it will pretty much run indefinitely. I've used Mobil 1 and ATF (~3:1 mix) for years but now prefer a safer, plant-based lube (currently trying ALG Go Juice). Slip2000 EWL is really good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bullseye View Post
    I'm new here and to ARs. This is a very interesting thread and I have seen the video. Question: even with a mil spec chrome lined barrel and BCG, would a lubricant designed for corrosion control be of benefit in terms of reliability? I use CLP and LP (a Breakfree product to lubricate and protect after cleaning). Would it be beneficial in terms of reliability to go to a product like Corrosion X ???????---Just to make sure?

  8. #88
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    FYI motor oil works as a gun lube but its bad for your health. There's a reason mechanics wear rubber gloves when changing engine oil.
    C co 1/30th Infantry Regiment
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
    FYI motor oil works as a gun lube but its bad for your health. There's a reason mechanics wear rubber gloves when changing engine oil.
    Really, I'd think you'd want to use rubber gloves no matter what you're using if they're available. I spent too much of the 1990's with my hands smelling like Break Free long after I'd finished cleaning and lubing a gun.

  10. #90
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    i'd say the modern M4's and M16's would fare a lot better than the original ones that didnt have a chrome lined chamber or barrel... if you look at all the videos on youtube of people running their AR's for thousands of rounds without cleaning them or doing the bare essentials like wiping off the bolt or doing a quick clean of the chamber and barrel.. and then running it for another couple thousand rounds.. or the BCM filthy 14... now the only thing you cant recreate or simulate is the environment of Vietnam, with the humidity, rain, mud.. and having a M4 in that environment everyday...

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