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Thread: AR reliability. Riddle me this.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevslatvin View Post
    If soldiers were deployed to a jungle environment like Vietnam with the current m4 but no cleaning kits( like those first m16s) would they fare any better? Is the chrome lined bore and chamber and proper powder enough to keep them running, or would there be stoppages and jams like the first time around? I'm not trying to troll it's just the whole AR vs AK reliability thing has got me thinking. Is the AR platform that much more reliable than it ever was or do we just know how to properly maintain them so they keep running now?
    If our soldiers in Vietnam were issued the M4A1 in it's current form without cleaning kits, it still would have been a disaster. There is very little real difference between a current AR and a Nam era AR. Parts between ARs of all eras are, with few exceptions, mix and match. I am amazed at how close Eugene Stoner was to getting it right the first time. The chrome lining was part of Stoner's design specs from the beginning. McNamara's "Whiz Kids" decided that chrome lining wasn't needed and deleting it would save the government money.

    The original powder was NOT ball powder or flake powder. It was WWII cannon powder similar to H4831. It was a stick powder. Pressure curves are controlled by burn rate. Stick powder controls burn rate by how much surface is exposed to the flame. Surface is determined by diameter, length and sometimes the grains are hollow tubes instead of being solid.

    Ball powders, on the other hand, control burn rate through the use of a retardant. If I recall, the retardant used by Olin-Winchester is powdered graphite. Winchester 748 is known to be one of the dirtiest powders known to man. It was ordered that the stick powder be replaced with the ball powder. The ball powder used also had a different pressure curve which resulted in increased carrier speeds. This lead to extraction problems.

    Stick powder burns cleaner but ball powder flows better through a powder meter. In fact, ball powder was specifically designed to be measured by volume instead of weight. Ball powder is better for mass producing ammunition.

    One reason the first M16s sent to Nam for evaluation were so successful is because they were in the hands of highly trained and motivated personnel- the Green Berets. They knew how to operate and maintain weapons. I have been able to verify this, but I believe those M16s were issued with the original stick powder ammo and had chrome lined chambers and bores.

    The hot, humid jungles of Vietnam is a harsh environment. There are accounts describing how a brass case chambered in an unlined M16 barrel would corrode and get stuck in just a few short hours. Soldiers would chamber a fresh round in the morning at the start of a patrol and found their weapons inoperable before noon. Adding to the problem was that the rifle was sold to the Army as self-cleaning. It was issued to the troops, many who were draftees, in the field with no cleaning gear or instructions on how to lube and maintain their new rifle. This was compounded by the sticky residue left by the ball powder.

    To answer the original question, while the modern M4 is a refined and battle hardened rifle, without maintenance, it wouldn't have fared much better. However, properly lubed and maintained, I think the handy size, reliability and SOCOM profile barrel for better cooling would have instantly endeared the M4A1 to the troops, especially with modern OTM ammo.

    The 5.56 of Vietnam did deliver devastating wounds, but it had nothing to do with the 1:14 or 1:12 twist. It was all about how spitzer boat tail bullets behave when hitting flesh. It was noticed the 55 gr spitzer boat tail would sometimes destabilize when it hit a body and the terminal effect was devastating. The trouble was, it only happened some of the time. Other times, the bullet would pass through doing only minimal damage. When the U.S. sought to improve the terminal performance of the 5.56, top priority was given to more reliable destabilization on impact. They found that lengthening the bullet (thus making it heavier) improved destabilization on impact with flesh.
    Last edited by MistWolf; 10-12-17 at 22:03.
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  2. #32
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    I disagree. An M4A1 can get pretty raunchy and work if it has lube. Good ammo would be nice but While the AR-15 was beloved by the SF of the era....the Military compromised M-16 was like a full step backwards because some doofuses were second guessing Gene Stoner.

    Once the corrected themselves, the stigma had been born. I have heard tell that some of that was intentional to get it to fail combat. This is hearsay so do not regard it as scholarly. Just those things people like to say but totally going against the guy who made its plans does smack of it.

    That said, if it was 1971 and you had a CAR-15 with a Colt 3x Scope or an OEG and 30 round mags then you had the state of the art for the world at that time.

  3. #33
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    Do you mean like the Philippines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevslatvin View Post
    Sorry if this is in the wrong section. If soldiers were deployed to a jungle environment like Vietnam with the current m4 but no cleaning kits( like those first m16s) would they fare any better? Is the chrome lined bore and chamber and proper powder enough to keep them running, or would there be stoppages and jams like the first time around? I'm not trying to troll it's just the whole AR vs AK reliability thing has got me thinking. Is the AR platform that much more reliable than it ever was or do we just know how to properly maintain them so they keep running now?



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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty223 View Post
    Wasn't the issue, not the ammo per say, but the powder used?

    IIRC the Vietnam era platform was designed around a clean burning 'ball' powder, but when ammo was purchased by the military procurement establishment, it was awarded to someone who used a dirty 'flake' propellent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    I disagree. An M4A1 can get pretty raunchy and work if it has lube. Good ammo would be nice but While the AR-15 was beloved by the SF of the era....the Military compromised M-16 was like a full step backwards because some doofuses were second guessing Gene Stoner.
    My point exactly. All I'm saying is, if the M4A1 were subjected to the same level of neglect, it would not have fared any better. That neglect included the lack of lubrication. Otherwise, I think the M4A1 would have been a superb weapon in Vietnam.
    Last edited by MistWolf; 10-13-17 at 03:21.
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    ETA: Personally, I feel this entire video is worth the time to watch. However, a summary of issues/corrections are at around the 50 minute mark.
    Last edited by tehpwnag3; 10-13-17 at 11:04.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
    I am literally begging you to stop posting misinformation like this. Please. This is right up there with Mattel having made the weapons.
    This is one of my sources. I realize some people disagree about its authenticity, but just to show you that I'm getting my information from actual sources:
    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/343778.pdf

    At a distance of approximately 15 meters, one Ranger fired an
    AR-15 full automatic hitting one VC with 3 rounds with the first burst. One
    round in the head-took it completely off. Another in the right arm, took
    it completely off, too. One round hit him in the right side, causing a hole
    about five inches in diameter. It cannot be determined which round killed
    the VC but it can be assumed that any one of the three would have caused
    death. The other 2 VC ran, leaving the dead VC with I carbine, 1 grenade
    and 2 mines. " (Rangers)
    (2.) (C) "On 9 June a Ranger Platoon from the 40th nf Regt was
    given the mission of ambushing an estimated VC Company. The details
    are as follows:
    a. Number of VC killed: 5
    b. Number of AR-oS's employed: 5
    c. Range of engagement: 30-100 meters
    d. Type wounds:
    1. Back wound, which caused the thoracic cavity to explode.
    2. Stomach wound, which caused the abhlominal cavity to
    explode.
    3. Buttock wound, which destroyed all tissue of both
    buttocks.
    4. Chest wound from right to left, destroyed the thoracic
    cavity.
    5. Heel wound, the projectile entered the bottom of the
    right foot causing the leg to split from the foot to the
    hip.
    These deaths were inflicted by the AR-IS and all were instantaneous
    except the buttock wound. He lived approximately five minutes.
    I've always thought this was legit?
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 10-13-17 at 09:40.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Glockster View Post
    This is one of my sources. I realize some people disagree about its authenticity, but just to show you that I'm getting my information from actual sources:
    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/343778.pdf

    I've always thought this was legit?
    As someone noted above, wounds were devastating IF the bullet destabilized on impact. There are also plenty of accounts of rounds sailing through N. Vietnamese leaving a neat little .223" diameter hole. The Russkies learned from this with the 5.45.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance435 View Post
    As someone noted above, wounds were devastating IF the bullet destabilized on impact. There are also plenty of accounts of rounds sailing through N. Vietnamese leaving a neat little .223" diameter hole. The Russkies learned from this with the 5.45.
    Sure. That's why some continue to say it's inadequate. My beef is that someone called me out for repeating something bogus when the information came from a documented source. No one ever said the round was perfect (or it wouldn't continue to be discussed). I haven't spent a lifetime researching this so I assumed a government document was legit. If it's not then that was my only mistake.
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 10-13-17 at 11:38.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Do you mean like the Philippines?
    Yes and no. Yes as far as the environment. No as I gather the US military issues the proper supplies and the soldiers are properly trained on how to care for the rifle now since malfunctions on any large scale seem to be a thing of the past.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    If our soldiers in Vietnam were issued the M4A1 in it's current form without cleaning kits, it still would have been a disaster. There is very little real difference between a current AR and a Nam era AR. Parts between ARs of all eras are, with few exceptions, mix and match. I am amazed at how close Eugene Stoner was to getting it right the first time. The chrome lining was part of Stoner's design specs from the beginning. McNamara's "Whiz Kids" decided that chrome lining wasn't needed and deleting it would save the government money.

    The hot, humid jungles of Vietnam is a harsh environment. There are accounts describing how a brass case chambered in an unlined M16 barrel would corrode and get stuck in just a few short hours. Soldiers would chamber a fresh round in the morning at the start of a patrol and found their weapons inoperable before noon.
    I think this is the answer I was looking for and was what I was thinking since not much has changed internally. Maybe it wouldn't have been as bad as maybe we wouldn't have had as much issue with stuck cases. But without lube and the wrong propellant they would have had problems.

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