RMR presentation speed is faster than with iron sights v. The internet is wrong

[Defaultmp3]

I didn’t claim he was an SME on tactics. Being a secret squirrel high-speed delta shuttle door gunner does not make one an SME.

There are lots of fields with lots of SMEs. I think you’re interpreting what an SME is differently than I do. I take it for it’s literal definition, and device doesn’t qualify or disqualify one as an SME in something other than for their specific service.

Maybe. Maybe not. However, you brought him up as an SME that uses a slide-mounted optic, to which I had a problem with, because I'm not even sure I'd consider him an SME in as narrow a field as CO in USPSA. By using him to justify carry choice, it implies that he is an SME in self-defense tactics; otherwise, I can point to any number of SMEs to justify all types of crap... even if they're not SMEs in the field that is relevant to the discussion at hand (like the aforementioned issue with TGO and FMJ as carry ammo).

Your distraction doesn’t have much to do with the topic at hand of performance with an RDS.

Fine. I'll have to dig around on Facebook, but I know for a fact that Rehn has stated that he ignores the RDS at close ranges, and utilizes the irons when shooting CO in USPSA... which would suggest that, yes, under certain conditions and skill levels, the RDS is slower than irons.

Speaking of which, another is Aaron Cohen.

I'm 100% sure that Aaron Cohen does not utilize slide-mounted optics, nor would I give a shit about anything he says self-defense related. Now, Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics? Yeah, he's a big slide-mounted optic guy, though again, not someone I'd necessary consider an SME, though again, certainly very knowledgeable.

[ghostly]

Maybe. Maybe not. However, you brought him up as an SME that uses a slide-mounted optic, to which I had a problem with, because I'm not even sure I'd consider him an SME in as narrow a field as CO in USPSA. By using him to justify carry choice, it implies that he is an SME in self-defense tactics; otherwise, I can point to any number of SMEs to justify all types of crap... even if they're not SMEs in the field that is relevant to the discussion at hand (like the aforementioned issue with TGO and FMJ as carry ammo).

I'm 100% sure that Aaron Cohen does not utilize slide-mounted optics, nor would I give a shit about anything he says self-defense related. Now, Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics? Yeah, he's a big slide-mounted optic guy, though again, not someone I'd necessary consider an SME, though again, certainly very knowledgeable.

Autocorrect got my phone.

I didn’t say an SME of CO division of USPSA. What is re topic of this thread? Presentation speed with RDS. We are talking about SHOOTING with a RDS. Again, we aren’t talking tactics. And again, if we are qualifying service as a qualification to be an SME, most of the guys that get mentioned have been out of the service for 20 years or more; before slide-mounted optics were a thing. Relevance declines with time.

Skills, ability to teach, performing the research and time isn’t mutual exclusive with service. Ever hear of Todd Hodnett? Never served, never was a sniper. Somehow, his expertise has led to redefining precision shooting for many in our military. Is he not an SME? The military sure seems to think so.

If you’re not a fan of red dots, that’s cool. You don’t have to be, but I’m sure Jedi could teach you a thing or to about them. He has put the time in behind an slide-mounted RDS.


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[Defaultmp3]

I didn’t say an SME of CO division of USPSA. What is re topic of this thread? Presentation speed with RDS. We are talking about SHOOTING with a RDS.

Yes, but one would think that knowing how to shoot with a slide-mounted RDS would be a pretty important component of CO in USPSA. Anyway, my point was, that's the only thing notable about Jedlinski, that he does quite well in CO. Other than that, he does not have any stand-out skills or accomplishments.

Again, we aren’t talking tactics.

Ah, but there-in lies the problem: what people carry doesn't necessarily mean they shoot the best with it. Raw shooting is a small component of self-defense and mil/LE.

Skills, ability to teach, performing the research and time isn’t mutual exclusive with service. Ever hear of Todd Hodnett? Never served, never was a sniper. Somehow, his expertise has led to redefining precision shooting for many in our military. Is he not an SME? The military sure seems to think so.

I never stated it was exclusive to those that have served. My point was that Jedlinski has no other qualifications; if he had served and was also a great competition shooter, I could see why you would choose him as an SME whose choice of carry should have an influence; if he has been a long-time major shooting instructor and a great competition shooter, I'd also give it some consideration, depending on the type of instruction. Etc. Also, I already stated that TGO is an SME, and he never served, either; nor has Rehn, who specifically states that the RDS is slower than irons at short, typical self-defense ranges.

If you’re not a fan of red dots, that’s cool. You don’t have to be, but I’m sure Jedi could teach you a thing or to about them. He has put the time in behind an slide-mounted RDS.

I am a huge fan of RDS on handguns; I only own two handguns, they are identical, and thus both sport slide-mounted RMRs. I am merely slightly disagreeing with the premise, and strongly disagreeing that Jedlinski's opinion is all that worthwhile.

[ghostly]

Yes, but one would think that knowing how to shoot with a slide-mounted RDS would be a pretty important component of CO in USPSA. Anyway, my point was, that's the only thing notable about Jedlinski, that he does quite well in CO. Other than that, he does not have any stand-out skills or accomplishments.

Ah, but there-in lies the problem: what people carry doesn't necessarily mean they shoot the best with it. Raw shooting is a small component of self-defense and mil/LE.

I never stated it was exclusive to those that have served. My point was that Jedlinski has no other qualifications; if he had served and was also a great competition shooter, I could see why you would choose him as an SME whose choice of carry should have an influence; if he has been a long-time major shooting instructor and a great competition shooter, I'd also give it some consideration, depending on the type of instruction. Etc. Also, I already stated that TGO is an SME, and he never served, either; nor has Rehn, who specifically states that the RDS is slower than irons at short, typical self-defense ranges.

I am a huge fan of RDS on handguns; I only own two handguns, they are identical, and thus both sport slide-mounted RMRs. I am merely slightly disagreeing with the premise, and strongly disagreeing that Jedlinski's opinion is all that worthwhile.

If you wanting disagree with that, start a thread, you’ve cluttered this one up enough with irrelevant information.

I don’t know Rehn, however if he’s slower, sounds like a training issue that he hasn’t devoted himself to the platform.

My experience is outlined in the thread as well as the OP’s. Seems all that dedicate themselves are faster while the those that don’t are slower. What some dude on or any dude on re internet thinks about it or what an “SME” thinks doesn’t change quantifiable data.


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[Defaultmp3]

I don’t know Rehn, however if he’s slower, sounds like a training issue that he hasn’t devoted himself to the platform.

Again, Rehn is the #1 ranked carry optic shooter in the world according to USPSA qualifiers, and #11 in the world to production; something tells me he has devoted himself to the platform if he was able to be the top ranked GM in CO, of which there's only 3. That is why I disagree that an RMR is always faster than irons as long as you train right, because multiple high performing competitive shooters have embraced slide-mounted optics still agree that under certain conditions, the optic is still slower, particularly for something with as small an FOV as the RMR. Hell, even Dr. Gary Roberts, one of the big original proponents of the RDS, has stated before that he was a bit slower with the RDS than irons at certain ranges. That's why I disagree: because there's plenty of skilled shooters that have found the slide-mounted RDS to be slower, even after significant effort. I don't believe it's universal, and that for some people, myself included, the RDS will be faster than irons, but it would be foolish to proclaim that the slide-mounted RDS, particularly the RMR, will always be faster at all distances for all dedicated shooters.

[ghostly]

The irony, most all RMR equipped pistols also have irons.


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[26 Inf]

Classifying someone as a SME is kind of subjective and depends on each individuals perspective.

To me an SME is someone who has knowledge about the subject, and has the ability to explain or instruct the nuances of the subject.

The idea is not that they are the Sun Source of knowledge, but, rather, have taken the time to delve into the subject to understand it's intricacies more than the average person.

Your status as a subject matter expert status can also be based on the audience you are is addressing. Courts call SME's 'expert witnesses.' I've been called as an expert witness on subjects ranging from officer involved shootings and other uses of force to officer safety issues inherent in allowing an Indian tribe to produce and issue their own license plates. While I like to think I hold my own, and I've been told more than once that I do, what it boiled down to was at those times I was educating folks on the subject, I just knew more about those subjects than anyone in the room, not everyone in the world. In the realm of SME's who are professional expert witnesses, I'm quite happy to admit that if I was allowed in the room it would be at the rear.

Many of us on this forum would rightfully be considered SME's on the function and usage of the M4 carbine if we were talking to a civic group. Probably not so much if we were speaking at the International Association of Patrol Rifle Armorers.

So. I think most anyone you guys have talked about is a SME.

JMO

[SeriousStudent]

Stop.

Ghostly, or should I call you by the name you were last banned under - tylerw02?

It's a bad idea to create a troll account after you have been banned for doing just what you are doing now - constant bickering and arguing.

It's an even worse idea to come back and do the same tired behavior that got you banned. Do us all a favor and do not come back next time.

[MDFA]

I'd like to see the RMR G19 become more widespread. Everybody like to post sexy photos of their chest rig and AR with nice optics, and then they have an iron-sighted G19 with one spare mag kind of hanging out in the shadows like the ugly kid nobody wants to be friends with.

It would be cool if every gun guy out and about had a concealed RMR G19 AIWB and was switched-on ready-to-go with it like they are with a carbine.

G19RMR.jpg

Will This Work? I do IWB it. And I carry 2-17 round spare mags.
Be Safe
MDFA

[MSparks909]

My .02 as a random internet gun enthusiast...I find RDS pistols to really start benefitting the shooter past 10-15 yards and when you’re shooting slower than ~.35-.50 splits. Can you shoot a RDS pistol faster than that and/or closer? Absolutely. But I think irons are a lot easier to track when shooting fast drills closer than ~10Y. To me, when I run a Bill Drill with my RDS pistols, the dot turns into almost a straight red line as I track it up and down. It’s easier for me to track irons at speed. YMMV. However for precision shots past ~15 yards, the RDS really comes into its own.