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Thread: Special Ops ammo

  1. #11
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    Incidentally, I don't believe the U.S. ever ratified the provisions of Hague regarding non-ball/partially-jacketed ammo, but we've generally abided by it.

  2. #12
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    If memory serves, it was Germany complaining about the British jacketed hollowpoint (tracing its history to the Dum-Dum Arsenal) round that caused that particular portion of the Hague Convention to be written the way it was.
    Experience is a cruel teacher, gives the exam first and then the lesson.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grand58742 View Post
    If memory serves, it was Germany complaining about the British jacketed hollowpoint (tracing its history to the Dum-Dum Arsenal) round that caused that particular portion of the Hague Convention to be written the way it was.
    I was told that this traces back to WWI.
    There were guys altering ammunition to cause even more devastating wounds than that would normally occur with normal unaltered ammunition.
    My Dad explained to me that these guys were cutting an "X" in the projectile tip to cause these wounds.
    Being a smart NCO, he also explained to me that this changed the ballistic characteristics to a degree that it was unreliable at distances. He also explained to me what happened to German Engineers in WWI who were caught with saw blade bayonets.
    We're not fighting in trenches against Europeans who complained even against shotguns being used in trench warfare.
    If you want a certain amount of humanity, lets fight humans or take the F'ing gloves off.
    Last edited by Averageman; 10-17-17 at 19:42.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
    I was told that this traces back to WWI.
    There were guys altering ammunition to cause even more devastating wounds than that would normally occur with normal unaltered ammunition.
    My Dad explained to me that these guys were cutting an "X" in the projectile tip to cause these wounds.
    Again, the Hague Conventions (i.e., prohibition of anything but fully jacketed bullets) pre-date WWI, but both the Central Powers and the Allies ignored them during the war. However, the prohibition was due in part to British "Dum Dum" bullets used in India in the 1890s. The use of chemical gases was also already contemplated at the second convention in 1907. Regardless, in most combat environments in which the U.S. is now engaged today, Hague prohibitions largely don't apply. The Geneva rules are trickier - Geneva rules in some cases apply to one side unilaterally, but there's a surprisingly comprehensive list of exigent circumstances for when they wouldn't apply. In many cases, where one side violates Geneva rules, the other side is likely not obligated to abide by them. It's really quite complicated.
    Last edited by sundance435; 10-17-17 at 20:57.

  5. #15
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    The Germans in WW1 also thought that the American use of combat shotguns was illegal.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedWillis View Post
    Thank you for the clarification on that.
    And thank you for saving me the time to type it again.
    Gettin' down innagrass.
    Let's Go Brandon!

  7. #17
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    I can't talk about SOCOM but US Army MPs doing LE work in CONUS have been using Federal 147GR JHP. I believe it is the DODIC A260 ammo already posted. If you dig around the net You'll find an article from around 2010 where the US Army JAG authorized them to do so. I believe that the ARMY decided to buy more of the JHPs it was already buying for the SOF guys, based on a solicitation I found from the late 90s, 10 years prior to MPs getting it. They are not allowed to use it down range.

    As mentioned above the Hague agreements prohibit the use of certain types of munitions. However, in Article 2 of the 1899 Convention, it makes it clear that the Hague convention only applies between contracting countries and if a non-contractor gets involved the Hague Convention no longer applies. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp The US in a non -contractor and therefore, by strict interpretation of said convention any war that the US joins, the Hague convention doesn't apply.

    However, there is more to the story. While the US didn't join the Hague Convention it did copy parts of it into FM 27-10 Law of Land Warfare. I don't have the chapter and paragraph in front of me, but I might have it at work. So we adopted the contents of the convention without signing it and to deviate from that you need an opinion from the Judge Advocate General of the Army amongst other things. I've heard, but don't have copies of, that there are JAG opinions allowing the use the use of JHPS against terrorists, the use of Open Tipped Match Rounds and a finding authorizing the MPs to use JHPs in CONUS for LE. Before we start complaining about lawyers, there are some folks in the JAG community that want to ditch some of the old rules and update 27-10 as it hasn't been updated in decades.

    Back to the OP, the adoption of Speer Gold Dot G2 will put a modern JHP into the Army system. The Federal JHPs I've issued are of a much older design and in my humble opinion less effective all other factors being equal.

    I apologize that I don't have all my sources readily available for linking.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cd228 View Post
    I can't talk about SOCOM but US Army MPs doing LE work in CONUS have been using Federal 147GR JHP. I believe it is the DODIC A260 ammo already posted. If you dig around the net You'll find an article from around 2010 where the US Army JAG authorized them to do so. I believe that the ARMY decided to buy more of the JHPs it was already buying for the SOF guys, based on a solicitation I found from the late 90s, 10 years prior to MPs getting it. They are not allowed to use it down range.

    As mentioned above the Hague agreements prohibit the use of certain types of munitions. However, in Article 2 of the 1899 Convention, it makes it clear that the Hague convention only applies between contracting countries and if a non-contractor gets involved the Hague Convention no longer applies. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp The US in a non -contractor and therefore, by strict interpretation of said convention any war that the US joins, the Hague convention doesn't apply.

    However, there is more to the story. While the US didn't join the Hague Convention it did copy parts of it into FM 27-10 Law of Land Warfare. I don't have the chapter and paragraph in front of me, but I might have it at work. So we adopted the contents of the convention without signing it and to deviate from that you need an opinion from the Judge Advocate General of the Army amongst other things. I've heard, but don't have copies of, that there are JAG opinions allowing the use the use of JHPS against terrorists, the use of Open Tipped Match Rounds and a finding authorizing the MPs to use JHPs in CONUS for LE. Before we start complaining about lawyers, there are some folks in the JAG community that want to ditch some of the old rules and update 27-10 as it hasn't been updated in decades.

    Back to the OP, the adoption of Speer Gold Dot G2 will put a modern JHP into the Army system. The Federal JHPs I've issued are of a much older design and in my humble opinion less effective all other factors being equal.

    I apologize that I don't have all my sources readily available for linking.
    Isn't the use of open tipped match rounds like the MK262 good to go because they don't expand?

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYH1 View Post
    Isn't the use of open tipped match rounds like the MK262 good to go because they don't expand?

    NYH1.
    The exact reasoning would be in the in body of the JAG opinion. The opinion was written around the .30 CAL OTMs. I can tell you that new munitions i.e. MK 262 are subject to legal review prior to fielding to the troops. In other words "If the Army issues it to you, you can shoot people with it".

    In the meanwhile check out the following links:

    This article, originallyhttp://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...%E2%89%A0-jhp/ written by the late Weaponsman discusses the terminal characteristics of MK262 and mentions Mk 318.

    Here is an excellent if a bit dry discussion of the situation by an actual Army Lawyer who wants to issue expanding ammo. He also references the opinion that authorized the use of OTM, it's note 14.
    https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/DOCLIBS...F.%20Berry.pdf

    Here is a decent write up of the legality of OTM rounds. It doesn't include the actual opinion, but it does discuss how the opinion came about.
    https://www.bevfitchett.us/sniper-tr...h-bullets.html

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. I'm just a guy who paid attention in the Landwar briefs and did some research.
    Last edited by cd228; 10-19-17 at 02:47.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    USSOCOM units receive standard-issue ammo from their parent services for general training and combat. That ammo is bought with each service's funds (Army ammo for Army Special Operations Command units, Marine ammo for MARSOC, Navy ammo for NAVSPECWAR, etc.).

    SOCOM ammo is bought with SOCOM money for SOCOM targets. Non-state or government combatants (i.e., non-flagged terrorists) are free game for use of expanding ammunition. They are not signatories to the Hague and Geneva Conventions, and they do not extend those courtesies to captured US Forces.

    Appreciate you sharing the images.

    Something tells me SGAmmo won't have any of these on their website lol.
    "In a nut shell, if it ever goes to Civil War, I'm afraid I'll be in the middle 70%, shooting at both sides" — 26 Inf


    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." — CNN's Don Lemon 10/30/18

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