JFK docs to be released

[sundance435]

Um, no. What was Stone doing in 67 with CBS? I'm also unclear what you mean by the why Hathcock had to buy into any magic bullet theories as he was attempting to recreate what was reported, 3 in that time frame with the rifle, all variables added. To repeat, the shots fired are not what actually hangs me up personally, and it's other aspects of the event has more meat to whether he alone took those shots or not.

JFK Assassination Oswald CBS Mannlicher Carcano Rifle Test 1967

An articles that discusses some of what you mention above and a solid read I thought:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/lee...ting-it-today/

I don't get what you're saying by linking that video - I think we agree it proves that it's very doable, with varying skillsets, in under 6 seconds. According to the Commission, one of the 3 shots was a miss. You're right about me inferring too much regarding the Gunny's comments and the magic bullet - it's usually brought up in conjunction with how the shots themselves were impossible and I took his comments to mean the shot placement wasn't possible under the circumstances. The magic bullet "theory" itself is largely based on the Zapruder film, though there's no forensic support to back it up.

To sum up my own meaningless opinion, I think it's entirely possible there was a conspiracy after the fact to cover up who knew what and when. Is it possible there's a Cuba/USSR connection to the actual assasination? Yes, but we'll never know because of the conspiracy that happened AFTER the assassination to hide evidence that would shake the country's confidence in government to the core, even if it was just gross incompetence on the part of the FBI and CIA. As for the assassination itself, it was a deranged loner from the 6th floor of the Book Depository with a crappy surplus rifle.

[WillBrink]

I don't get what you're saying by linking that video - I think we agree it proves that it's very doable, with varying skillsets, in under 6 seconds.

Yet no one in that vid was able to do it apparently...being fast is not difficult, being fast and accurate, now that's another matter. Lots of people can get the shots off in that time with that rifle, still not seen a one that made the hits when all variables were identical.

The "magic bullet" thing existed waaaaaaaaaay before Stone, which you claimed. It's not correct.

According to the Commission, one of the 3 shots was a miss.

Not everyone in the commission agreed with that assesment BTW. See article linked. Two bullets then:

"This one bullet, known as CE399, is said to have gone through 15 layers of clothing, a necktie knot, 7 layers of skin, and 15 inches of tissue, shattering 4 inches of rib and a wrist bone" yet was found with essentially no changes or deformation. This is the bullet that is claimed to have done that:



I'm not ballistics expert by any means, but shot my fair share of things to see that list of damage and that pic and go "Umm, something aint right here"

Bullet two that met flesh "... the headshot, disintegrated entirely after going through two layers of skull,"

Guess we have to put that one down to "bullets do strange things" but for me, that, like so much about that event, stretches the idea to it's breaking point. Your mileage may vary.

You're right about me inferring too much regarding the Gunny's comments and the magic bullet - it's usually brought up in conjunction with how the shots themselves were impossible and I took his comments to mean the shot placement wasn't possible under the circumstances. The magic bullet "theory" itself is largely based on the Zapruder film, though there's no forensic support to back it up.

To sum up my own meaningless opinion, I think it's entirely possible there was a conspiracy after the fact to cover up who knew what and when. Is it possible there's a Cuba/USSR connection to the actual assasination? Yes, but we'll never know because of the conspiracy that happened AFTER the assassination to hide evidence that would shake the country's confidence in government to the core, even if it was just gross incompetence on the part of the FBI and CIA.

All very possible indeed.

[sundance435]

Yet no one in that vid was able to do it apparently...being fast is not difficult, being fast and accurate, now that's another matter. Lots of people can get the shots off in that time with that rifle, still not seen a one that made the hits when all variables were identical.

The "magic bullet" thing existed waaaaaaaaaay before Stone, which you claimed. It's not correct.

Not everyone in the commission agreed with that assesment BTW. See article linked. Two bullets then:

"This one bullet, known as CE399, is said to have gone through 15 layers of clothing, a necktie knot, 7 layers of skin, and 15 inches of tissue, shattering 4 inches of rib and a wrist bone" yet was found with essentially no changes or deformation. This is the bullet that is claimed to have done that:

Guess we have to put that one down to "bullets do strange things" but for me, that, like so much about that event, stretches the idea to it's breaking point. Your mileage may vary.

All very possible indeed.

Not being difficult or trying to turn this into a two person debate, but the subject matter is very interesting and I can't resist. I took a class in undergrad about assassinations; obviously Kennedy was the focal point towards the end. We read Posner's "Case Closed", which was the eminent non-conspiracy book at the time (I think it's still highly regarded) and another pro-conspiracy book to balance it out. I came away finding the Commission's explanation as the most credible, although you do have to accept a few things at face value that might otherwise stretch notions of credibility, like the non-deformed bullet - though there's actual debate, even in the report, about which bullet it was, since it was found on the hospital gurney after the fact. To me, the "more than one gunman" theory, which the impossible shots and magic bullet theory are founded upon are nothing more than alternate explanations with little grounding in available facts. There were some quirks in Oswald's behavior on the morning of the assassination that helped convince me that he left his house that morning to assassinate JFK and I just didn't find the alternate explanations justifying more than one shooter as convincing.

Having been in and around law enforcement my whole life, I've never found the maxim "The simplest explanation is often the truth," to be that accurate, but I think it generally applies to the JFK assassination. Again, I think there's some merit to a coverup after the assassination to keep the focus from being on the FBI and CIA's ineptitude. At the time, the American public had no knowledge of what would later be revealed by the Church Commission. Had that info been known, maybe the Warren Commission's investigation would've pursued leads to that end, especially Mexico City. Incidentally, I think the Cuban woman who reported Oswald's Mexico dealings to the CIA is still alive and has discussed it before, though she didn't have direct knowledge about what was discussed. She merely reported on the meeting at the embassy between Oswald, the USSR, and Cuba.

"JFK" has had a profound effect on people's perception of what happened by presenting alternate explanations as nearly factual. Garrison wasn't taken seriously by many people until the movie came out. On a separate note, "Mr. X" is pure fiction, yet I'm amazed at how many people who have seen the movie take it as proof of government involvement.

Anyway, cheers to having an actual thoughtful conversation over the internet about a heated topic (though it's definitely calmed down as time has gone by). I always find it interesting to hear others' take on things like this and I'm glad there are people out there who second-guess.

[Dr. Bullseye]

Lee Harvey Oswald qualifies as a Sharpshooter in the USMC, hitting 49 times out of 50 at a target 200 feet away----OK, impressive. But he used an MI Garand. Now flash over to Nov. 1963 when he orders a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle from a mail order firm with a scope "custom fitted" by the shipper. This is a bolt action rifle. Lee Harvey couldn't have practiced very much--there was not enough time. Lee Harvey is credited with hitting a man in a moving car, moving away from him at some distance in less than 5 seconds. I'll tell ya, nobody at my range can do this in my opinion. Can you? Could Lee Harvey do it? Just tell me from a shooters standpoint, no other Warren Commission stuff.

The rifle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F...sination_rifle

What do you think right off the top of your head?

[AR-n-Ky]

I have shot bolt action rifles in competition. 5 rounds, load 5 more and make 10 hits in the 10 and X ring with a match rifle and in the 9,10 and X ring with Springfield 1903 and Enfield P17 and Enfield No. 4 Mk1 at 200 yards, with military iron sights in under a minute (60 seconds, or one minute is the time limit at 200 yards) ( 70 seconds, or one minute and 10 seconds time limit at 300 yards).

I say, that yes I could do it, or close to it with a little bit of practice.

With my AR 15 Service Rifle, I have shot 10X many times, the group so tight that the pit just stuck a large spotter in the center of the group and called it a day.

So I don't think that it is out of the question of being doable.

The Carcano was a fairly accurate rifle, the first ones with gain twist rifling can be surprisingly accurate, for a battle rifle. The 6.5 Carcano cartridge is fairly light recoiling and pretty flat shooting. So, that is going for it. I don't remember how the action feels on them, but if it is half way smooth, then I say that the rifle is more than capable.

[Dennis]

I remember reading an article many years ago about the exact shot being setup at a rifle competition and most were easily able to make the hits. The farthest range was 90m I believe.

Dennis.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[brushy bill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5IWK9sRYTs

Saw this thread and instantly thought of Gunny Hartman.

[WillBrink]

I came away finding the Commission's explanation as the most credible, although you do have to accept a few things at face value that might otherwise stretch notions of credibility, like the non-deformed bullet - though there's actual debate, even in the report, about which bullet it was, since it was found on the hospital gurney after the fact.

Exactly. It's either the bullet that went through the cranium, or the bullet that went through both of them, or a different bullet not accounted for, making the 2 bullet theory incorrect. Or, for reasons unknown, dropped on the gurney by someone. Ergo the bullets origins:

[WillBrink]

I remember reading an article many years ago about the exact shot being setup at a rifle competition and most were easily able to make the hits. The farthest range was 90m I believe.

So far, that's what we have: shows remembered, articles remembered. etc I have supplied various hard points suggesting otherwise. I'd really appreciate if someone would post something showing the shots made under identical recreation of the shot(s) taken that day. To add another data point:

“The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was because I could not have done it,” said former US Marine sniper, Craig Roberts. Credited with numerous kills while serving in Vietnam , Roberts turned an objective eye on the shot heard ‘round the world. After he visited Dealey Plaza, after viewing the so-called “sniper’s lair,” on the sixth floor of the book depository, and after staring at the large oak tree overspreading much of Elm Street, Roberts said, “I walked away from the window in disgust. I had seen all I needed to know that Oswald could not have been the lone shooter.”

But Roberts, a retired police investigator, wanted to know what did happen. Not content to dismiss the improbable feat, he delved into the crime from every angle."

Roberts was a friend of Hathcock and the origin of the Hathcock quote:

http://oswald-not-guilty.blogspot.co...iper-says.html

Per the Warren commission:

"For the benefit of the Warren Commission, expert riflemen from the US Army and the FBI attempted to duplicate the assassin’s task, using the rifle that had been discovered on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

Even after fixing some of the gun’s mechanical problems, and despite firing at stationary targets from an easier vantage point, they failed to achieve the combination of accuracy and speed demanded of the lone gunman: two hits out of three, within about six seconds (see Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.446 and pp.403–10)."

[WillBrink]

Lee Harvey Oswald qualifies as a Sharpshooter in the USMC,

Sorta....

According to his Marine score card (Commission Exhibit 239), Oswald was tested twice:

In December 1956, after “a very intensive 3 weeks’ training period” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.302), Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a ‘sharpshooter’.
In May 1959, he scored 191: one mark above the minimum for a ‘marksman’.

Colonel Allison Folsom interpreted the results for the Warren Commission:

The Marine Corps consider that any reasonable application of the instructions given to Marines should permit them to become qualified at least as a marksman. To become qualified as a sharpshooter, the Marine Corps is of the opinion that most Marines with a reasonable amount of adaptability to weapons firing can become so qualified. Consequently, a low marksman qualification indicates a rather poor “shot” and a sharpshooter qualification indicates a fairly good “shot”.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, pp.17f