Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 93

Thread: Does the argument against a shorter, lighter trigger really hold up?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Eastern NC
    Posts
    8,733
    Feedback Score
    88 (100%)

    Does the argument against a shorter, lighter trigger really hold up?

    The general consensus seems to be that the ideal trigger for a defensive gun is around five pounds because if you go with something much lighter, it may be easier to ND under stress. I don't have a lot of experience shooting under real stress but this just seems like BS to me and I'm curious to see what others think because I've only ever seen it as something that gets blindly repeated. I understand the concept on the surface, but here are the two issues I have with it:

    1. We all know that the finger isn't supposed to be on the trigger until you're ready to shoot anyways, so if you've ingrained that into your muscle memory and its on the trigger, its because you're actively going through that shot process. In my opinion and experience, this is the biggest rule of firearms safety so it is therefore the one that should be practiced and adhered to the most, making this a relatively uncommon occurrence. But I get it, stress and real life causes shit to happen, so we'll move on to my bigger issue with the claim.

    2. If you're in such a stressed, startled, "body alarm response," (insert other chosen buzzwords here) situation that your finger happens to get to the trigger before you actually want it to, then it probably has to be a pretty big "oh shit" moment, right? In that case, is the extra two pounds/few millimeters of trigger pull really going to be the defining factor that prevents your ND? I really doubt it.

    I am genuinely curious as to what I am missing that makes this a credible statement. Keep in mind, this is just discussing trigger pull weight and distance, not the potential issues that some aftermarket triggers cause with the factory safety devices. Below is the video that I was just watching that made me ask. I'm a fan of John and his channel, and have seen the statement presented by many different people so it is far from unique to him. I have also had the above views on the statement for longer than a few hours, but just decided to ask it now for whatever reason.

    Sic semper tyrannis.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    N.E. OH
    Posts
    7,621
    Feedback Score
    0
    Most importantly I want to put my finger on the trigger when I’m “on target” and break the shot when I’m in the bull. A heavier trigger allows me to feel the trigger and time the break as the sights settle on the bull.

    I’ve had issues with light triggers where I pulled shots prematurely under stress. I won’t go back. Call it a crutch, it is what it is. Sometimes I could feel it, sometimes not and it threw me off.

    The flip side- what benefit does a light trigger offer? Especially in the context of a defensive pistol.

    Edit to add/clarify, finger on trigger when I ‘can shoot’ or ‘it’s safe to shoot’ but not necessarily the exact moment yet.
    Im outside for a while in 40 degree weather, I shot all summer feeling my trigger, now I might break a shot while I think I’m starting the pull. Life/death difference? Not likely, but it could mean missing a HS at 25yds. In my experience, a light trigger has never shown greater accuracy- but a heavier has in certain situations..
    Last edited by MegademiC; 11-02-17 at 20:26.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    SWMT
    Posts
    8,188
    Feedback Score
    32 (100%)
    Put some heavy winter gloves on. Or even regular heavy leather work gloves: Depending on the glove, hand/finger size, pistol, and how light your trigger pull is, simply putting your finger in the trigger guard may be sufficient to get the gun to go boom.

    We also have the experiences of Todd Green (and others), where LEM and DA triggers are viewed as a benefit because it gives you a visual cue that your finger is pressing the trigger rearward when you might otherwise be oblivious.

    And finally, there is the fact that (generally) our brains will unconsciously check to ensure that the trigger is still there, while our conscious brains are too busy deciding when and if to actually pull the trigger to notice (this tie into the above).
    " Nil desperandum - Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it. "
    - Samuel Adams -

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    SOMD
    Posts
    908
    Feedback Score
    50 (100%)
    This is a good read with respect to triggers from PF. While the focus is on LEM, I think the points made may backup the argument against short/light.

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....t-trigger-quot

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    11,472
    Feedback Score
    46 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayrevolver View Post
    This is a good read with respect to triggers from PF. While the focus is on LEM, I think the points made may backup the argument against short/light.

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....t-trigger-quot
    Dagga Boy, aka Darryl Bolke, is a friend. His commentary is spot on, in my opinion.

    Darryl and Wayne Dobbs, who is a member and Industry Professional here, taught me about a research paper written years ago by Dr Roger Enoka. You can read the paper here:

    https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/ima...0Resources.pdf

    You do not need to read the entire 95 pages in the PDF, Dr Enoka's paper is the first 10 pages. Basically, he points out situations where ND's are very easy to occur.

    If you are serious about carrying firearms, you should read those first 10 pages. And if you talk to LEO's who have worked in high crime areas, many of them can tell you of instances where a person needing to be shot altered their behavior toward the side of angels during a trigger press.

    Having a treat management tool that allows one to manage threats is a good thing.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    7,965
    Feedback Score
    9 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousStudent View Post
    Dagga Boy, aka Darryl Bolke, is a friend. His commentary is spot on, in my opinion.

    Darryl and Wayne Dobbs, who is a member and Industry Professional here, taught me about a research paper written years ago by Dr Roger Enoka. You can read the paper here:

    https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/ima...0Resources.pdf

    You do not need to read the entire 95 pages in the PDF, Dr Enoka's paper is the first 10 pages. Basically, he points out situations where ND's are very easy to occur.

    If you are serious about carrying firearms, you should read those first 10 pages. And if you talk to LEO's who have worked in high crime areas, many of them can tell you of instances where a person needing to be shot altered their behavior toward the side of angels during a trigger press.

    Having a treat management tool that allows one to manage threats is a good thing.
    Everyone has an opinion and Dr. Enoka's work mostly tells you not to have your finger on the trigger when you should not. Its not about pull weight. Personally I think you can have a pull too light when you are stressed and the problem is you may fired before you intend too missing the shot or hitting something you did not intend to. That said having heavy triggers with long pulls hurts your hit probability under those same stressful situations. A balance must be struck and that is where people start arguing. For me I like Glock type triggers with a lighter connector in them to make the pull weight around 4.5 pounds.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    8,703
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousStudent View Post
    Dagga Boy, aka Darryl Bolke, is a friend. His commentary is spot on, in my opinion.

    Darryl and Wayne Dobbs, who is a member and Industry Professional here, taught me about a research paper written years ago by Dr Roger Enoka. You can read the paper here:

    https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/ima...0Resources.pdf

    You do not need to read the entire 95 pages in the PDF, Dr Enoka's paper is the first 10 pages. Basically, he points out situations where ND's are very easy to occur.
    I have my doubts that one can be trained to minimize involuntary contractions in the real world--lab experiments notwithstanding--so keeping one's finger outside the trigger guard becomes even more important. Because stress and the "fight-or-flight" response tends to override our ability to think, I am doubtful that involuntary contractions can be "educated out" of a person. Training to minimize involuntary contractions seems like a fantasy, IMHO. You can train someone to keep their finger out of the trigger guard, but I do not think you can train them not to "tense up" when things go rotten. The key term being "involuntary". Put a different way: you can't train your heart not to race under stress. It's called an "involuntary" response for a reason.

    I do not believe that in a "training" scenario, you can adequately reproduce anywhere near the stress of a real-world encounter, and therefore I don't think you can make a person "unlearn" the involuntary contractions that make him unintentionally squeeze the trigger. The only thing you can do is train the person to follow proper handling techniques and keep the finger off the trigger until ready to fire. That way when the involuntary contractions occur, there isn't an ND.
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 11-03-17 at 15:55.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    CONUS
    Posts
    5,999
    Feedback Score
    3 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayrevolver View Post
    This is a good read with respect to triggers from PF. While the focus is on LEM, I think the points made may backup the argument against short/light.

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....t-trigger-quot
    Here is a quote from that thread that really caught my attention. "Mas Ayoob talks about some of this when he noted coppers are not in the gunfighting business, although we do have to gunfight at times, but in the threat management business. Two different animals completely."
    Last edited by T2C; 11-04-17 at 14:43.
    Train 2 Win

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    4,100
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Fjallhrafn View Post

    And finally, there is the fact that (generally) our brains will unconsciously check to ensure that the trigger is still there, while our conscious brains are too busy deciding when and if to actually pull the trigger to notice (this tie into the above).
    I'm normally awesome about keeping my trigger finger along the frame.

    I would have thought your line above silly if I hadn't actually done this myself during active shooter training! I had a Beretta 92 (training gun like the real thing, even takes real mags and cycles real rounds, but plastic barrel is solid beyond the chamber and there is no firing pin hole or firing pin) and while pieing a corner I felt my finger touch the DA trigger as if to make sure it was still there. I couldn't believe I did that. An instant after I looked at the SGT running the drill on the outside of the corner I was pieing...goddammit he was looking right at me....

    How embarrassing! Ah, well. I guess the drill was pretty intense and/or I take it seriously.

    My opinion on triggers for a duty gun? I think 5-7 lbs is the sweet spot. 4 definitely too light (unless it's long) , 8 definitely too much. (DA first shot up to 12 lbs acceptable) JMO.
    Last edited by Ron3; 11-03-17 at 00:55.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    8,703
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    Most importantly I want to put my finger on the trigger when I’m “on target” and break the shot when I’m in the bull. A heavier trigger allows me to feel the trigger and time the break as the sights settle on the bull.

    I’ve had issues with light triggers where I pulled shots prematurely under stress. I won’t go back. Call it a crutch, it is what it is. Sometimes I could feel it, sometimes not and it threw me off.

    I am 100% in agreement. I looked forward to the Gen 5 Glock for months. I kept a Gen 5 Glock 17 for exactly a week and then traded it back to the gun shop for a Gen 4. The Gen 4 trigger gives one the ability to do just what you're talking about as far as fine-tuning your aim before the shot breaks. I experienced a couple of premature ignitions (entirely my fault not the pistol's) with the Gen 5 and decided I personally did not like it.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •