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Thread: Does the argument against a shorter, lighter trigger really hold up?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostly View Post
    I have personally seen guys discharge their firearm on reset when put under pressure. Typically, these were guys that wanted super-light triggers but had little to no training.

    Meanwhile, in competition, I've never seen open-class guys with 1-2 lb. triggers have NDs with the stress of competition. Take it for what it's worth.

    I do not see much advantage to sub-4 lb triggers on a defensive gun.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Concur.
    I have seen A/M/GM guys with open guns ND into the ground in front of targets or put round some between targets on splits due to early DC on more than one occasion.

    Each time they were given a miss instead of a DQ.

    Reality is they ND with the light trigger.

    Those are range/game guns

    Some geniuses put super light game triggers like that on their carry guns.
    With their likely hood of doing so being inversely related to their skill and training level.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    I don't think it necessarily requires the perp noticing the officer's finger going into the trigger guard to prep the shot, it could simply be that the officer just drew, or just raised the gun at the suspect, which is what the suspect/perp reacted to, and it just so happens that the officer was also pressing the trigger as the gun was being drawn/brought onto target. Thinking out loud
    I took it to mean that as a result of the longer DA pull in the instances referenced the officer was able to determine the subject didn't need to be shot.

  3. #23
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    OP, what's your primary pistol?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    So, what does 'finger off the trigger' or 'finger outside the trigger guard' mean to the members of the forum?
    1) To me, for training and court purposes, if your finger is inside the trigger guard it is the same as having your finger on the trigger. Finger off trigger means finger outside trigger guard. I've heard some trainers argue back and forth about whether having your finger inside the trigger guard is the same as having your finger on the trigger. When asked "would you want to have someone testify in court they observed you had your finger inside the trigger guard when not legally justified in applying deadly force?" the response was a unanimous "Hell No!" With unloaded pistols we experimented with sympathetic muscle reflex while grabbing and dragging a weighted duffle bag. We also experimented with maneuvering quickly over and around obstacles without dragging the duffle bag. There were several negligent trigger presses, that would have been negligent discharges, in a real scenario with a loaded firearm.


    This is as site from a case where a LEO was covering a suspect with a revolver and his finger on the trigger. It's Medina vs City of Chicago. https://www.leagle.com/decision/1992...2d49011023.xml After this case was adjudicated many police trainers in the Midwest referred to it when stressing keeping the finger off the trigger while covering a suspect and until the decision to discharge the firearm was made.

    2) If I decided to carry a firearm with reduced trigger weight for defensive purposes, I would want to be prepared to justify that decision through documentation including training records well in advance of carrying the firearm. Training records that documented I was more accurate under stress, without incident of negligent discharge, would be one item I would want to have readily available.

    The comparison of IPSC and USPSA competitors is not realistic. Most are generally experienced shooters with a lot of trigger time competing in a controlled environment and no one is trying to kill them.
    Last edited by T2C; 11-04-17 at 10:22.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggy View Post
    I measure the trigger weight by what I feel comfortable enough with from the feedback from my trigger finger *first* and foremost. Can I control the trigger when running the gun hard. If checking with a break guage, it will usually reads between 4.5-5.0 lbs. I used to own a PPQ, it had a great trigger but it just *felt* too light for my liking when the adrenaline is pumping.
    This is about the same trigger weight as I like my Glocks, and also is one of the reasons why I don't like carrying them. When talking about trigger weight as a safety measure as it relates to AD/ND, the discussion should consider pressure weight that can trigger a shot when applied anywhere on a trigger face. If we can accept that a person might make a mistake of ND, we should accept that the mistake might involve applying a pressure / allowing a contact to any part of a trigger, not just the middle of it. For Glocks, 4.5 lbs break at a point of natural finger placement means 4 lbs or less break if trigger is engaged at its tip. So it is not really a 4.5-5 lbs trigger from safety standpoint and this does get to me, so I don't.

  6. #26
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    Trigger weight will not prevent a Negligent Discharge. The people who will go after you in court after a defensive encounter might be able to convince a jury that trigger weight was a contributing factor to a negligent discharge. Whether or not trigger weight would hurt you in court will depend on where you live, the demographics of the jury pool and how the presiding judge rules on objections to whether or not trigger weight is admissible.

    From a practical standpoint my personal preference for trigger weight on a defensive pistol is 4.5 - 5.5 lbs. Personally, I haven't experienced an advantage with a lighter trigger weight.
    Last edited by T2C; 11-04-17 at 11:36.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayrevolver View Post
    This is a good read with respect to triggers from PF. While the focus is on LEM, I think the points made may backup the argument against short/light.

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....t-trigger-quot
    Here is a quote from that thread that really caught my attention. "Mas Ayoob talks about some of this when he noted coppers are not in the gunfighting business, although we do have to gunfight at times, but in the threat management business. Two different animals completely."
    Last edited by T2C; 11-04-17 at 14:43.
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  8. #28
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    Trigger weight, without a dispute, is a factor that mitigates risks of some NDs. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion, various SME wouldn't be opining what constitutes a reasonable minimal duty trigger weight, and manufacturers wouldn't set factory pull weights at some arbitrary level. Even the best trained people do things with their guns that shouldn't be done, you just have to spend time around different folks and observe them. Sometimes, even 25 lbs trigger won't matter and sometimes keeping it at a healthy 5+ lbs vs gamey 4- lbs can make a difference.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlander Systems View Post
    OP, what's your primary pistol?
    Glock 19 at the moment. I have no idea what my pull weight is right now but for the first several years of owning it, there was a 3.5# connector in it. I really didn't feel like it was dangerously light.

    I'm sure the sample size of this is small, but has anyone ever heard of someone saying that they realized they were unintentionally pulling the trigger and stopped it before it became an actual ND? Who is to say that those competition shooters wouldn't have ND'd with a five pound trigger too?
    Sic semper tyrannis.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    Glock 19 at the moment. I have no idea what my pull weight is right now but for the first several years of owning it, there was a 3.5# connector in it. I really didn't feel like it was dangerously light.

    I'm sure the sample size of this is small, but has anyone ever heard of someone saying that they realized they were unintentionally pulling the trigger and stopped it before it became an actual ND? Who is to say that those competition shooters wouldn't have ND'd with a five pound trigger too?

    I know somebody who was RSO'ing a match when he saw the hammer drawing back on a DA hammer fired pistol as it was being holstered, grabbed the guys arm and told him to stop (was standing right on top of him), no discharge resulted. But that's hearsay as I wasn't there, and is a pretty narrow set of circumstances.

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