Does the argument against a shorter, lighter trigger really hold up?

[Outlander Systems]

Excellent.

A salty NCO/M4C'er smoked my balls off with 65-lb dumbbells, and various sprints; culminating in throwing a dufflebag filled with sand around over obstacles and performing varying pistol tasks.

IIRC, you're still AD, and not opposed to giving yourself a light coat of sweat...

I can't speak for anyone else, but after my introduction to getting smoked during a pistol course, my factory G17 trigger literally felt like it weighed an ounce.

That experience convinced me that under duress, the perceived weight of a trigger is reduced considerably.

Glock 19 at the moment. I have no idea what my pull weight is right now but for the first several years of owning it, there was a 3.5# connector in it. I really didn't feel like it was dangerously light.

I'm sure the sample size of this is small, but has anyone ever heard of someone saying that they realized they were unintentionally pulling the trigger and stopped it before it became an actual ND? Who is to say that those competition shooters wouldn't have ND'd with a five pound trigger too?

[YVK]

I can't speak for anyone else, but after my introduction to getting smoked during a pistol course, my factory G17 trigger literally felt like it weighed an ounce.

That experience convinced me that under duress, the perceived weight of a trigger is reduced considerably.

That is indeed a reproducible conclusion. Problem is that even if it feels like an ounce trigger, you won't be shooting it as well as actual ounce heavy (figure of speech) pull trigger. Perception of trigger feeling light doesn't translate in ability to manipulate it any better under duress than under calm conditions, or as if it was a lighter trigger. In fact, usually shooting performance declines under duress, I think this is usually an agreed on statement.

[Warp]

That is indeed a reproducible conclusion. Problem is that even if it feels like an ounce trigger, you won't be shooting it as well as actual ounce heavy (figure of speech) pull trigger. Perception of trigger feeling light doesn't translate in ability to manipulate it any better under duress than under calm conditions, or as if it was a lighter trigger. In fact, usually shooting performance declines under duress, I think this is usually an agreed on statement.

What I took away from that statement was that a light trigger of the arguably-too-light type, might feel like it just-went-off as you feel for it and BANG

[26 Inf]

1) To me, for training and court purposes, if your finger is inside the trigger guard it is the same as having your finger on the trigger. Finger off trigger means finger outside trigger guard. I've heard some trainers argue back and forth about whether having your finger inside the trigger guard is the same as having your finger on the trigger. When asked "would you want to have someone testify in court they observed you had your finger inside the trigger guard when not legally justified in applying deadly force?" the response was a unanimous "Hell No!" With unloaded pistols we experimented with sympathetic muscle reflex while grabbing and dragging a weighted duffle bag. We also experimented with maneuvering quickly over and around obstacles without dragging the duffle bag. There were several negligent trigger presses, that would have been negligent discharges, in a real scenario with a loaded firearm.

This is as site from a case where a LEO was covering a suspect with a revolver and his finger on the trigger. It's Medina vs City of Chicago. https://www.leagle.com/decision/1992...2d49011023.xml After this case was adjudicated many police trainers in the Midwest referred to it when stressing keeping the finger off the trigger while covering a suspect and until the decision to discharge the firearm was made.

I honestly don't where this comes from, we taught 'The Universal Cover Mode' and posited that in the "UCM" three things had to exist before the trigger finger entered the trigger guard and contacted the trigger - 1) target ID'ed as threat; 2) sights on target; 3) decision to fire.

My question what does 'finger off the trigger' or 'finger outside the trigger guard' mean to the members of the forum? Wasn't artfully asked, I wanted to make a point.

Some folks think that laying their finger across the trigger guard with the fingertip resting on the front of the trigger guard is 'finger outside of trigger guard.' In reality it isn't, startle, stumble, or sympathetic contraction at maximum exertion will likely result in flexion sufficient to ND a SA or striker fired pistol.

The finger needs to have as much metal under it as possible. The tip of the trigger finger should be touching - actually laying on - the slide of the weapon. Right handed shooters should be laying against the ejection port, left handed shooters on the flat of the slide as high as possible. Positioning like this requires the finger to not only flex to the rear, but also requires contraction to move the finger down.

The AR is more problematic because there are controls in close vicinity to the location you'd want to lay the finger tip. The rear ejection port cover boss is a good location for righties; I'm a leftie and to be honest, I got nothing to recommend that gives me a warm fussy, I index on the top of the bolt catch, but I have long fingers. Key elements, you want as much metal as possible under your finger, and keep away from the mag release.

That's JMO, I've seen a few ND's during force on force because of trigger finger flexion and know of one case where a bad guy who didn't need to be shot got shot because an officer stumbled and his finger flexed onto the trigger.

[ramairthree]

People exist in different worlds.

If someone has been categorized to the point my gun is aimed at them, my finger is on the trigger and already squeezing,
There is no going back.
They are eating rounds until they fall.

And for me to be doing so with a pistol would have meant my carbine being down.

Trigger pull as a function of letting me decide to stop pulling the trigger was never part of the equation.

Once some met the pull the trigger option, there was no do over for them.

[T2C]

I honestly don't where this comes from, we taught 'The Universal Cover Mode' and posited that in the "UCM" three things had to exist before the trigger finger entered the trigger guard and contacted the trigger - 1) target ID'ed as threat; 2) sights on target; 3) decision to fire.

My question what does 'finger off the trigger' or 'finger outside the trigger guard' mean to the members of the forum? Wasn't artfully asked, I wanted to make a point.

Some folks think that laying their finger across the trigger guard with the fingertip resting on the front of the trigger guard is 'finger outside of trigger guard.' In reality it isn't, startle, stumble, or sympathetic contraction at maximum exertion will likely result in flexion sufficient to ND a SA or striker fired pistol.

The finger needs to have as much metal under it as possible. The tip of the trigger finger should be touching - actually laying on - the slide of the weapon. Right handed shooters should be laying against the ejection port, left handed shooters on the flat of the slide as high as possible. Positioning like this requires the finger to not only flex to the rear, but also requires contraction to move the finger down.

1) I understand your question now. We taught finger touching the side of the frame, well above the trigger, pointed the same direction as the muzzle until it became necessary to fire. I agree with your point about laying the finger on the trigger guard. Under stress it can bite you. I've seen it bite personnel during training.

2) Concerning trigger weight, I witnessed a ND during a foot pursuit. The Deputy was carrying an out of the box DA/SA S&W 5906. He pulled all the way through DA and fired a round into the ground after he grabbed the suspect's sweatshirt with his free hand. Finger position, not trigger weight, caused the ND.

[Sparky5019]

I see this more as a personal answer each user. I’ve spent what amounts to, in consecutive time, years shooting “under stress” with sub 1# triggers on handguns. I’ve never had issues with that. My defensive Glocks are set at super short, super sharp 3# pulls with zero take up.

I temper the above with the fact that no one has ever been shooting back at me. I do take issue with the “heavy leather work glove” example though. That strikes me as a “see I’m right because of x” argument. Most people can’t argue with that because you don’t want to try to stuff a welding glove in a trigger guard. I’ve not seen many surveillance vids of Street gunfights where the good guy was wearing welding gloves. Just sayin. The most would be a light set of winter gloves and I see that as something to address if you accept the responsibility of carrying a gun. Most work I do “outside” only requires a set of mechanix gloves. JMO.

ETA: Great points in the vid in the OP’s post. One thing that I’ve not heard anyone bring up is neuropathy. If you have issues with that and don’t have good sensation in your fingertips, that might argue for a heavier pull or more pretravel in a trigger.

[MegademiC]

I will add to my previous pist that a safety would make a light trigger acceptable to me, as the safety doesn’t come off till I’m on target.

I still prefer a heavier trigger- gen4 glock with ‘-‘ connector

[AKDoug]

I will add to my previous pist that a safety would make a light trigger acceptable to me, as the safety doesn’t come off till I’m on target.

I still prefer a heavier trigger- gen4 glock with ‘-‘ connector

Is that how you run a 1911? Once out of the holster and heading for the target my thumb rests on top of the "go peddle" (safety). Finger stays off the trigger until on target, but the safety is off.

[MegademiC]

Is that how you run a 1911? Once out of the holster and heading for the target my thumb rests on top of the "go peddle" (safety). Finger stays off the trigger until on target, but the safety is off.

It was a SAO CZ. It depended on the situation. If I was drawing to shoot, safety would come off as soon as the muzzle was towards target. If I was moving with the gun in hand, the safety generally went on when I came off target and went off when I was on the next.