Plates for civilian

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Never cracked a ceramic plate from mishandling. Have been shot in an ESAPI. It worked. And it sucked.

The average Joe Blow buying armor to play dress up at an annual class would be better spent using those funds on a gym membership and more time on the range. Both will dramatically increase survivability and overall quality of life.

If you're going to do it, do it right. Having lived (yes, lived) in plates for 3 years of my life, I want thin, light, and contoured plates. AR500 is just thin and does a piss poor job against even basic M193. Armor is one of those things that if you need it, YOU NEED IT to work. Why would you cut corners on something you may well depend on to save your life?

If you've done a realistic threat assessment and determined you need plates, the next question to answer is "how much is my life worth" and go from there.

There’s so much truth in this post it made my soul cry tears of win.


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[Djstorm100]

Thanks guys. Purpose of having plates is not for playing dress up but a part of my plan if SHTF. I've wore a friends chest rig with AR500 plates and I hated it not to mention the weight.

[Defaultmp3]

I hear what everyone is saying, however the average guy may not have the time, energy, ability, wherewithal to think through like the M4C’ers you all are. The hero in TX had a rifle and a handful of bullets, and no shoes. Not everyone will research to the n’th degree, blow their Christmas Fund, and think it through about all these points. They’ll say “hey my steel Plates are still here in my trunk, I’m GTG”.

I think you're still missing the point. The wider point is, plates are generally not worthwhile to begin with; they take time to put on, limit mobility, add weight, cost money that can be put toward ammo and/or training, have the added expenditure of support gear, etc. If you really need plates, then you really need to do research and you'd see that steel simply has more costs than benefits; spalling issues, extra weight, inability to defeat M193 at close ranges, etc. Steel's only practical advantages are thinner profile and slight cost differential; if 185 USD for a multicurve Level 4 is too expensive, you can easily find single curve plates for less than 120 USD, and these aren't even sale prices.

If anything, the TX example just further reinforces the lack of utility of plates; putting time towards marksmanship, positional shooting, and fitness are all far better use of resources than buying plates for the purposes of self-defense and reasonable scenarios in the defense of others.

[VARIABLE9]

I think you're still missing the point. The wider point is, plates are generally not worthwhile to begin with; they take time to put on, limit mobility, add weight, cost money that can be put toward ammo and/or training, have the added expenditure of support gear, etc. If you really need plates, then you really need to do research and you'd see that steel simply has more costs than benefits; spalling issues, extra weight, inability to defeat M193 at close ranges, etc. Steel's only practical advantages are thinner profile and slight cost differential; if 185 USD for a multicurve Level 4 is too expensive, you can easily find single curve plates for less than 120 USD, and these aren't even sale prices.

If anything, the TX example just further reinforces the lack of utility of plates; putting time towards marksmanship, positional shooting, and fitness are all far better use of resources than buying plates for the purposes of self-defense and reasonable scenarios in the defense of others.

I didn’t miss anything. I appreciate everyone’s responses.
My point which you might be missing is that people may already own plates that are and will be serviceable, albeit heavy and have all the limits of ‘steels’ mentioned. And also that Yes, $185 per plate may be cost prohibitive when a) someone already owns steels, or b) gets a good deal in their price range on steels.
(Link me the specific $185 because a quick search I’m finding $250+)
I know it’s the ‘how much is your head worth’ motorcycle helmet sales pitch. Believe me. Just like anything else ‘technical’ whether it’s a chicom optic versus an Elcan, or a muffler from PepBoys versus a stainless steel 3” pipe Borla full dual exhaust system, or even a Sunbeam blender versus a Vitamix CIA Professional Series Blender doing your research and choosing what fits your needs and budget and isn’t a snake oil solution is best in the long run.
I’m shopping for ceramics. I have steels. But in the interim until I find the best ceramics that fit all my criterion my steels will have to do.


Edit - I see the link for $185. Says it’s 9.5 lbs.

[Outlander Systems]

For any lurkers who inadvertently stumble upon this thread and aren't beset by emotional attachments to inanimate objects:

Relevant Questions:

1) Why do you want plates?
2) Are you familiar with the applications whereby plates are preferential to have?
3) Does armor enhance mobility, or hinder mobility?
4) Are you familiar with the pelvic girdle?
5) Does armor negate the use of defilade?
6) What happens when a +/-3,000 FPS projectile comes into contact with steel?
7) What is your 100m sprint time without kit?
8) What is your 100m sprint time with kit?
9) What is your environment?

Regarding self-inducement of burden...

Simple arithmetic AS FOLLOWS:

2-4 lbs for carrier
7-10 lbs for steel plates.

Thats a 16-24lb killbib starting off ****ing slick.

[VARIABLE9]

I don’t think too many people know what a defilade even is.

[Vandal]

Before you buy plates
Most people who think they need plates really don't.

A-fu<king-men! Even in most carbine classes for the civil shooter you don't need plates. Once you start playing in shoot houses, absolutely but not the square range classes most end up in unless you want to look like "that guy".

If you do still think you must have plates, get the good stuff. After all, your life is worth it, right?

[markm]

A-fu<king-men! Even in most carbine classes for the civil shooter you don't need plates. Once you start playing in shoot houses, absolutely but not the square range classes most end up in unless you want to look like "that guy".

Although I don't have plates... I see them as more of a civil unrest/societal break down item that is nice to have. I've never considered wearing armor to a class.

I'd like to have a set of ceramics at some point... since my carrier will hold them in addition to the soft panels already there.

[contax_shooter]

Running kit absolutely sucks.

Pay the premium for better gear to make the experience suck a little less.

[Jellybean]

For any lurkers who inadvertently stumble upon this thread and aren't beset by emotional attachments to inanimate objects:

Relevant Questions:

1) Why do you want plates?
2) Are you familiar with the applications whereby plates are preferential to have?
3) Does armor enhance mobility, or hinder mobility?
4) Are you familiar with the pelvic girdle?
5) Does armor negate the use of defilade?
6) What happens when a +/-3,000 FPS projectile comes into contact with steel?
7) What is your 100m sprint time without kit?
8) What is your 100m sprint time with kit?
9) What is your environment?

Regarding self-inducement of burden...

Simple arithmetic AS FOLLOWS:

2-4 lbs for carrier
7-10 lbs for steel plates.

Thats a 16-24lb killbib starting off ****ing slick.

I'm going to take this one further, since my own experiences in gear experimentation may help lend some practical thought to a general audience.
So, I had a Crye AVS- slick w/ harness and pads the thing weighs 3.48 pounds (heaviest carrier I've owned- most standard carriers [6094/APC/Scarab,etc] drop in right around 1.5-2 lb like OS said), but I was initially ok with that due to the enhanced comfort....
Now here's where it gets fun- *with* pouches (empty) for what I consider a "maximum SHTF/ oh Lawd Jesus there's a far'fight" loadout it came in at 5.9 lb, still without armor (and I'm running modern 500D/Hypalon/elastic pouches, not 1000D w/ button straps stuff...).
My plates at the time (ceramics) were 14lb (2x 6lb plates, 2x 1lb soft backers), so I'm at 20lb before loading a single mag... *still* a couple pounds short of most steel setups, but....
Add 6x rifle, 2x pistol mags, an IFAK, light/multitool/batteries/misc. GP stuff, simulated radio, and a 2L bladder and Do. The. Math..... IIRC the full weight was around 36 lb.
To give it it's fair due, the AVS did work as advertised for comfort with heavy loads..... but weight is still weight no matter how it sits on your body.

Now... to put this in the "SHTF" sort of situation most envision something like that being of use in:

Sure, folks are gonna be like "meh, 36 lb, ain't that heavy", and yeah, I can walk around with it on all day too and I'm not even in great shape.
However...
If you're going out to patrol an area, or pulling an Escape From NY or whatever, you're probably planning to tack on a pack of some sort. Let's just say a basic daypack. From my experimentation, that usually clocks in around 15 lb (including pack weight). So add that to your armor loadout. If you've got one of those "INCH" type BOBs.... keep adding.

Then, bring into consideration movement- if you have prolonged movement, or movement over difficult terrain, that's a hit to your ability to sustain carrying the weight. Then let's say you get bumped, now you're looking at rapid movement with the weight either to assault or break contact, which is a whole new level of suck.
Now, again, I know there's folks reading this going, "bah, I could handle 50 pounds". Well, good for you. The target audience here is the average civi who's never thrown on all their kit actually loaded up they way they "plan" and then tried to run around in it...

Because here's the end result of extra, or excess weight- mental compromise and laziness. Because if you're training to use your gear in a situation where you're actually going to be shot back at, there should be an awareness of of actually attempting to take cover as you would be in an actual situation. After all, your armor is just temporary moving cover, and scant cover at that....
But here in the shooting world we have an entire community of folks that doesn't do that- IF they even bother to T&E their gear as they intend to use it, it's still stationary shooting at helpless paper or maybe some short dashes between barricades. Yippee.
So now if we fast forward to "The Event" you've got folks moving around in all their shit, it's hot or there's some sort of inclement weather event going on, they're more tired than they expected to be and now people start to mentally space out. Then they get lazy- they take the easy paths, they're "scanning" not "looking", then the contact happens, and they don't take effective cover because getting back up with all the extra weight is hard.... All great ways to get hands on experience with how well your plates work, and maybe even use of an IFAK...

Anyway, TL: DR, most folks don't realize how fast the weight WILL pile on, and since few actually load their gear to planned capacity, or practice realistically with it.
Further, an argument I also hear for Steel is "well, I'm going to be in a stationary position so the weight won't matter". Sure, and my middle name is Davy Crockett....
Armor is nice to have. Real nice, and frankly I'd feel a little naked without it if I knew something was going down. BUT, if the extra weight (of ALL your gear combined, not just the armor) is going to impede your ability either physically or mentally to accomplish the "Shoot and Move" part of fighting.... maybe rethink things a bit.

A great book to read is Company Commander by Maj. Russel Lewis. All about a Para regiment in Afghanistan doing day patrols and the occasional overnight ambush. Read about the activities they were conducting, the weight they were carrying, and the physical effects on the troops, and then apply liberally to your own gear considerations.
https://www.amazon.com/Company-Comma.../dp/0753540312