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Thread: FBI'S 'Newest' 9MM Duty Load ?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotmeshotu View Post
    they stopped using it because they believe it cause the death of two agent, i wonder why use it now ? no solid reason given to te public.
    The Miami shooting you're referring to was in 1986 using 115gr Silvertips.

    A LOT has changed in bullet technology, and 9mm JHP's have come a very long way and have proven to be effective, especially the 147gr variety.
    PRAISE THE FALLEN
    SSG Kevin Roberts KIA 7-May-08
    1Lt Nick Dewhirst KIA 20-July-08
    Cpl Charles Gaffney KIA 24-Dec-08
    Spc Peter Courcy KIA 10-Feb-09
    PFC Jason Watson KIA 10-Feb-09

  2. #12
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    I talk to big-city ER docs and medical examiners, read autopsy reports and look at autopsy and CSU photos, study how anatomy works. Conclusions are radically different from shooters' conventional wisdom:

    1. All the service calibers work (or don't work) the same. 9mm, .40, .45, .38, .357, there's no discernible difference.
    2. Hollow points usually don't expand. They either look pretty pristine or they just look mangled.
    3. Hollow points usually exit.
    4. MEs and ER docs can't tell from the entrance, exit, or wound track what kind of bullet it is. Only way to tell is to recover a bullet.
    5. Trick bullets (Critical Defense, those weird ones with the flutes, etc) are all marketing hype.

    I carry FMJ in my carry guns. If you want JHP, buy something like Federal 9BP ($16 / 50 rounds) or the Remington or Winchester equivalent.

    On the street, bullets are bullets.

  3. #13
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    .2 Do they know the difference between hollow points? I mean a doctor can't tell the difference if it was a PPU, or Wolf hollow point vs Federal or GD?!? If most shots were civilian on civilian and most people buy cheap then it wouldn't be a stretch that the "hollow points" were simply fmj bullets with holesin the center?!

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    .2 Do they know the difference between hollow points? I mean a doctor can't tell the difference if it was a PPU, or Wolf hollow point vs Federal or GD?!? If most shots were civilian on civilian and most people buy cheap then it wouldn't be a stretch that the "hollow points" were simply fmj bullets with holesin the center?!

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    Not sure what you're asking. If doctors and pathologists can't tell the difference, looking at wounds, between JHP and FMJ generally, they sure can't tell you the brand or design of the bullet from looking at the wound.

    And nobody, but nobody, sits around drilling axial holes in FMJ bullets and then getting into urban shootings.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe View Post
    can't tell the difference, looking at wounds, between JHP and FMJ generally,

    And nobody, but nobody, sits around drilling axial holes in FMJ bullets and then getting into urban shootings.
    That's kinda my point. Assuming it was a civilian shooting and not police. People tend to buy the cheapest things possible. "Just as good as" is a very common phrase in gun stores and gun forums. Not all ammo is created equal and just because it has a hole in the center doesn't mean it will behave like a hollow point. And that's essentially what some companies do. They make a bullet with a cavity and call it a hollow point. Meanwhile that bullet behaves like a fmj. No one is sitting at home drilling holes. You see my point?

    So, now some person buys the cheap eastern European "hollow points" thinking that "it's just as good as", uses it and end result the doctor in the hospital sees a misshapen bullet with a cavity and proclaims hollow points don't work. And technically his opinion is correct based on his observation. Unfortunately he doesn't know if that bullet was made by Wolf, who's known for poor design and quality control or Federal

    Does that make more sense?

    For visual reference. I know these videos are chessy but I was looking for quick and in the same media

    PPU 9mm 147gr HP
    https://youtu.be/WKbzhyBo-PM

    Vs

    Federal 9mm 147gr HP
    https://youtu.be/M8vgH53ybGU

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    Last edited by Arik; 04-27-18 at 22:32.

  6. #16
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    Yes. But I have seen primo stuff behave the same way. Silvertip .45 x 4, 300 pound body, all exited. Speer .357 JHP, skull and shoulder hits, no expansion. Etc. Handgun velocity bullet expansion is iffy at best.

  7. #17
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    You've seen it how? Are you a doctor? Hospital employee? Are you allowed into the morgue? I'm sorry but Uni-Vibe doesn't exactly relate any meaning. And of course what weapons are we talking about? 357sig is probably not doing much expansion out of a sub compact pocket gun. Neither does 9 or 45 or 40 really. Just like a 357 mag will not expend out of a snub nose like it would out of a 4in barrel

    All been documented that majority of hollow points require duty size guns to properly expand. Which is why theres now an attempt to make sub compact specific ammo.

    Too many variables to simply state that they're all the same and HP is no different than fmj when you don't know the ammo or gun used

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    Last edited by Arik; 04-27-18 at 22:44.

  8. #18
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    Too many variables to simply state that they're all the same and HP is no different than fmj


    But the point is, people are killed by all kinds of barrel lengths, and all kinds of bullets, and the pros can't tell the difference unless they see the bullet.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe View Post
    Too many variables to simply state that they're all the same and HP is no different than fmj


    But the point is, people are killed by all kinds of barrel lengths, and all kinds of bullets, and the pros can't tell the difference unless they see the bullet.
    Yes true. Also sometimes they live long enough to beat the owner of the gun to death. So what? They guy could have died 5 hours later! It's not that they die it's when. People get killed with 22lr all the time but I don't see anyone advocating the carrying of 22lr as a valid option

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    Last edited by Arik; 04-27-18 at 22:49.

  10. #20
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    I would gyess most hollowpoints look the same because most gang bangers dont use Hst or gold-dots.
    OIS show that those rounds typically replicate the 4ld tests.

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