I agree with your previous comment that handgun projectile expansion is iffy at best. I would like to read some of the material published by big city docs who said hollow points usually exit. Please give cites of medical publications in which they documented specifics. Did any of them document approximate time from infliction of gunshot wound to incapacitation? That information would be helpful.
I had the opportunity to work in some active areas and over a 24 year period I made it a point to be on scene shortly after a shooting incident or to attend autopsies of a number of individuals who were shot. I also had the opportunity to converse with LEO who investigated shooting incidents and ask about their observations. When I worked plain clothes I had the opportunity to attend quite a few autopsies related to cases investigated by my agency and other agencies. When I worked both uniform and plain clothes, I'd seen bodies on scene or at autopsies that most hollow points fired from a handgun stayed inside the body of the person who was shot. Expansion was in the 50% range with all cartridges ranging from .380 Automatic to .45 ACP, but that personal observation is anecdotal. 9mm +P+ projectiles are the only hollow points that I observed consistently passed all the way through a shot suspect or victim.
I've only seen two people who were shot with a .45 ACP and three who were shot by a .40 S&W. Two of the gun shot wounds by .40 S&W were self inflicted when the person was holstering their service pistol. The rest of the gunshot wounds were inflicted by smaller calibers.
One recurring observation was that 9mm +P+ completely penetrated most persons who were shot by handguns and they suffered through and through wounds in which the exit wounds were the same size as entrance wounds. I am only aware of one of several incidents in my area in which a 9mm +P+ projectile fired out of a handgun did not pass through the person who was shot. On one occasion a person was shot in the forehead with a Colt SMG loaded with 115g +P+ hollow point, the projectile punctured the skin, traveled around the head between the skin and skull, then came to rest under the skin in the back of the head. The last incident proves that projectile performance is often unpredictable.
Federal .45 ACP Hydra-Shok, Winchester Black Talon 9mm 147g HP and .38 Special GDHP all expanded and stayed in the torso. One person who was exercising poor firearm safety shot themselves in the thigh with a Walther PPK loaded with Hydra-Shok ammunition, which expanded beautifully. The .38 Special Glaser Safety Slug inflicted the most damage out of every gunshot wound, but I only saw one person who was shot with that cartridge. .40 S&W 180g TMJ, 9mm 115g FMJ, 9mm 124g FMJ, 9mm 147g FMJ and .357 Magnum 158g Lead Flat Point all passed through the people who were shot. .38 Special LRN, .380 Auto FMJ, all .32 ACP rounds and projectiles from all sub calibers, .22 LR, .22 Magnum, .25 ACP, etc. stayed in the torso of the person shot with surprisingly little penetration by anything smaller than .38 Special out of this group of cartridges.
My observations are from field experience and are anecdotal. Based on my personal experience I would never recommend FMJ for a defensive cartridge and I haven't met an instructor or homicide investigator who would.
Given the advances in ammunition design and development over the past 20 years, I believe the 9mm is a viable candidate for a service pistol cartridge. A modern 9mm cartridge that meets the right criteria should serve a street cop, and the rest of us who carry for self protection, well.
Last edited by T2C; 04-27-18 at 23:31.
Train 2 Win
Hi Guys, I guess I should revise my initial post of November 2017, which reported that the FBI had chosen the then relatively new Speer 9mm 'G2' 147 gr. GO for it's new duty load. Well, I guess either the FTU's R & D boys, and the B's management has been having luncheon's with the Hornand y sales two's ? ( Or perhaps a little bit of both ? ) I just received this Hornandy press release advising that the 'new' FBI issue load will now be the 9mm Hornandy'Critical Duty' 147 gr. HP+P. Oh well, I truly hope that they're changing for the better, based upon performance & terminal effectiveness, rather than the all to frequently seen political reasons. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem at all with the 'B', they're no different than any other large L.E. agency. Well, hopefully this 'new' load will prove effective on the steet, especially when combined with their new & improved G-19M's. Perhaps now with everyone running 9mm's, the street Agent's combat accuracy 'should' hopefully improve, resulting in better hits & quicker drops. OK, I'm done. THANKS
Best, dpast32
Actually Sgt. the .45 was needed after the Phillipine insurrection, where the .38 didn't stop opium hopped-up Morons rebels. The .45 was adopted as the 1911 and also s revolver and was used in WW1. The .45 performed fine in Korea, it was the .30 call M-1 rifle did not. The .9 was adopted by the military in the 80's as a political thank you to Italy for supporting NATO and it's as a bone thrown to Italian company Beretta. The US military found along the way, that a lot of wimpy projectiles are not better than fewer hard hitting ones, which is why the military is looking for a replacement for the .9. I hated the .9 in Iraq. I'm a retired cop, firearms and academy instr, retired Guard MP 1SG and former Marine. .9 is useless. I carried a .40 or .357 my whole civilian career.
Useless, is a post about military ball ammo and caliber in a discussion about modern LE loads.
Uni-Vibe, pistol caliber bullet design is about giving yourself the best chance. None do anything magical, but modern barrier blind designs expand and still penetrate more reliably.
My point is that good HP do reliably expand. Not 100%, but more than cheap stuff(while still penetrating).
Are the docs you mentioned terminal ballistics experts? Have they done statistical comparisons of expansion and penetration depth of various projectiles, or just opining over what they saw without much thought?
I would value the opinion of people who actually study terminal ballistics over a random ER or other doc. For example, DocGKRs finding do not line up with what you are saying.
Yes all handguns suck, but saying there is no performance issue between a good hp and fmj is a different story.
Last edited by MegademiC; 04-28-18 at 12:58.
Hey Kids, NO offense intended here, but just to clarify something, it was the U.S. M1/M2 CARBINE that exhibited somewhat lackluster performance in Korea. The late SLA Marshall authored an excellent study of US Small Arms & their use during that era. Some anecdotal 'report's state that both the 110 gr. FMJ .30 caliber Carbine & .45 pistols could be defeated at longer ranges by the CCF & NKPA's quilted uniforms, which I personally find somewhat difficult to believe. As for our adoption of .45 ACP, it was indeed mostly due to the poor results of the issue .38 Long Colt ctg against the highly motivated, & drugged Moro warriors. Many times prior to battle, the Moro's would bind up their extremities with homeowners to prevent blood loss if they suffered multiple wounds. There's numerous instances of our troops emptying their Colt M-1892 .38's into an attacking Moro, only to be decapitated by a Bolo wielding warrior.
Best, dpast32
But the sequel to the story is, the Moros didn't drop any faster when hit by .45. And a lot of them kept on comin' even after being hit by 30-40 Krag.
A 124 grain piece of lead at 1200 fps is not "wimpy." It will kill / stop you just as fast, or as slow, as 230 grains at 830 fps. What I find interesting is that mega-pistol rounds are an American thing; the rest of the world doesn't see a need for anything more "manly."
9 is "useless?" You ought to see how fast people drop when hit IN THE RIGHT SPOT by them. No shortage of opportunities in the big city to observe real-world results.
T2C, could you post which specific load or loads of 9mm+P+ you observed consistently failing to expand? If you have that info but don't want to post it, could you PM it to me?
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