FBI'S 'Newest' 9MM Duty Load ?

[WillBrink]

Good Morning Folks, Just to verify my own observations, exactly which load didnthe FBI 'most recently' adopt for their issue 9mm's ? I've noted that they appear to have decided upon the Speer G2 version 147 GDHP, although I keep running across very recently dated articles that they adopted the Hornandy 'Critical Duty' brand for their issue weapons ? Is it perhaps the Hornandy load for all calibers other than 9mm or did they suddenly decide against Critical Duty loadings ? Any input will be much appreciated. THANKS

Best, dpast32

I don't know the answer but I thought that Critical Duty had tested poorly via Roberts.

[Todd.K]

I believe it's in the deeper penetration/little less expansion camp, but both 9 and 45 are on the list. That also seems to be what the FBI is looking for. I don't think we know yet if it's the same 135gr or something different/newer made specifically for the FBI.

The Speer contract is supposedly up, so this may just be a better price from Hornady for about the same performance.

[T2C]

I believe it's in the deeper penetration/little less expansion camp, but both 9 and 45 are on the list. That also seems to be what the FBI is looking for. I don't think we know yet if it's the same 135gr or something different/newer made specifically for the FBI.

The Speer contract is supposedly up, so this may just be a better price from Hornady for about the same performance.

Do you think someone looking for a personal defense load should consider carrying the same load as a FBI agent carries in the field? I am not talking about someone who is employed in the Executive Protection field, but someone who carries to protect themselves and their family. Would a person who is carrying concealed be more or less likely to shoot through auto glass, etc.?

People often select a cartridge, because a LE agency carries it. Should we be approaching the issue from a different perspective?

[dpast32]

Yes 'Train 2 Win', you are heading down the correct path. Most CVS & armed civilians tend to place way too much focus on which particular load one of the large L/E Agencies are using, as opposed to considering what their exact requirements are. Pretty much all L/E issue duty loads tend to be an 'acceptable balance' of all the major factors they consider important to them, & basednuponbtheirbspecific needs / requirements. They want power, but not too much power that it can't be controlled by the average Officer . Agent. They want penetration, but not too much penetration. They want expansion, though not too early after impact, thereby reducing the projectile's penetration too much. Can't you see all the trade off's. MOST armed civilians don't frequently encounter the same scenario's as most LEO's. They, as civilians SHOULD be concerned with 1 ( one ) primary issue, that's to cause the perpetrator to cease his, or her hostile actions, period. MOST instances will not require auto body & or glass penetration, Kevlar penetration, barricade penetration, & so on. Pretty much ANY of the newer designs of loadings designed for & marketed to the CCW community should suffice just fine. And, as a parting note, learn to shoot under less than ideal conditions, & to shoot as rapidly as possible at close ranges. 3 well placed, center mass rds will usually do the trick. If not, shoot again & then reasess.

Best, dpast32

[yoni]

I would not base what I carry in my pistol on the FBI.

In my career I have had contact multiple times with the FBI, none were impressive.

They blamed the failure of it's agents in the Miami shooting on 1 bullet fired in the whole shootout and never address the absolutely poor tactics of the agents.

For years in Israel we were forced to carry 9mm ball, due to political reasons. In my career I never saw an incident where the poor choice of ammo forced on us made the difference in an incident. In my unit we carried SMG 9mm in our pistols to reach inside cars even better.

Today I carry Underwood 124 grn +p+ in the pistol with a mag of NATO ball backing it up.

I would never let an agency made up of layers and accountants, to guide my choice in ammo. I will always keep in touch with my friends from cross training from multiple nations Tier 1 anti terror units to see what work best. I talk to my fellow vets and not white collar sleuths for weapons, tactics and ammo.

[Todd.K]

Chasing the exact load is kinda like expecting it to be something magical. Picking a load that meets FBI spec is a simple way to get something that has been tested to, most importantly to me, expand through heavy clothing. There are plenty of loads being sold that either do not expand reliably through heavy clothing, or fail to penetrate deep enough to get to vitals.

The FBI test can be objectively evaluated apart from any interactions you have had with it's agents yoni. It was made with outside terminal ballistics experts to objectively measure bullet performance. It is repeatable, has common intermediate barriers, heavy clothing, has been compared to performance in actual shootings, and a focus on minimum penetration needed for less than ideal shot angles.

[WillBrink]

Chasing the exact load is kinda like expecting it to be something magical. Picking a load that meets FBI spec is a simple way to get something that has been tested to, most importantly to me, expand through heavy clothing. There are plenty of loads being sold that either do not expand reliably through heavy clothing, or fail to penetrate deep enough to get to vitals.

The FBI test can be objectively evaluated apart from any interactions you have had with it's agents yoni. It was made with outside terminal ballistics experts to objectively measure bullet performance. It is repeatable, has common intermediate barriers, heavy clothing, has been compared to performance in actual shootings, and a focus on minimum penetration needed for less than ideal shot angles.

And based on specific standardized measures developed based on successes and failures of real world shootings. Choosing rnds that have done well in standardized testing developed for the FBI does not seem a bad place to start without chasing magic bullets. Choose brand A,B,C that test well in standardized tests and worry about more important things.

[yoni]

I have said it many times, the bullet you stuff in your pistol will not determine if you live or die.

9mm is my choice after learning the hard way that 45 acp isn't a death ray.

[1168]

I talk to big-city ER docs and medical examiners, read autopsy reports and look at autopsy and CSU photos, study how anatomy works. Conclusions are radically different from shooters' conventional wisdom:

1. All the service calibers work (or don't work) the same. 9mm, .40, .45, .38, .357, there's no discernible difference.


On the street, bullets are bullets.

edited for brevity

I also talk to “big city ER docs” and study anatomy (and physiology). I even carried guns for a living before I changed careers.

In my anecdotes, I’m either there when the dude gets shot, or I arrive within a few minutes thereafter. To be fair, this isn’t a daily event for me. My experience and studies lead me to carry expanding ammo that performs well in gelatin and/or OIS. Backup mags are ball of the same weight, when I bother to carry them.

I can agree with your point #1, with the caveat that more hits, faster, is generally better.

Bullets may be bullets, but I see no reason to ignore any reasonable advantage. You can get some excellent ammo for $.40 a pop.

[T2C]

edited for brevity

I also talk to “big city ER docs” and study anatomy (and physiology). I even carried guns for a living before I changed careers.

In my anecdotes, I’m either there when the dude gets shot, or I arrive within a few minutes thereafter. To be fair, this isn’t a daily event for me. My experience and studies lead me to carry expanding ammo that performs well in gelatin and/or OIS. Backup mags are ball of the same weight, when I bother to carry them.

I can agree with your point #1, with the caveat that more hits, faster, is generally better.

Bullets may be bullets, but I see no reason to ignore any reasonable advantage. You can get some excellent ammo for $.40 a pop.

I have learned a great deal about penetration, projectile expansion and damage inflicted after expansion from ER Doctors, Thoracic Surgeons and Medical Examiners. It helped me do my job much better when I investigated shooting incidents.

I have not yet met an ER Doctor, Thoracic Surgeon or Medical Examiner who was directly involved in the armed conflict that resulted in their treating a patient with gun shot wounds or performing an autopsy. It would be difficult for them to offer an informed opinion on how quickly a suspect was incapacitated without hearing details from someone who was directly involved in the shooting incident or who was the lead investigator assigned to the case.

The bottom line is, for me anyway, how quickly an attacker was incapacitated and no longer able to inflict harm. That is the primary goal for most of us and I rely heavily on information coming from the field when selecting defensive ammunition.