FBI'S 'Newest' 9MM Duty Load ?

[WillBrink]

Yes, right before it hit his right upper arm. The bullet traveled through his upper arm and into his chest. Fired from a full size S&W 459 with a 4in barrel. This is why we now have minimum penetration and expansion standards.

You're not going to get 9 nato from a typical sub compact carry gun

And while the FBI event was terrible, it catapulted the science of terminal ballistics into what it is today, which has probably saved the lives of LE et al since. Anyone using that event and silver tips as the reason to avoid JHP over FMJ, simply does understand how far the science has come and how much was learned since.

I had an ME tell me he recommended .25 because he saw so many killed with it, telling me he too didn't "get it."

All things being equal, Penetration is more important than expansion, but as already pointed out, we don't have to decide between them with modern quality JHPs, which is also why the .40 fell out of favor as it did if one wants to bring up the .40...

[Uni-Vibe]

Yes, right before it hit his right upper arm. The bullet traveled through his upper arm and into his chest. Fired from a full size S&W 459 with a 4in barrel. This is why we now have minimum penetration and expansion standards.

You're not going to get 9 nato from a typical sub compact carry gun

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9mm NATO (Winchester Q4318) works most excellently in my subcompact carry gun.

. . . .

That Critical Duty in 9mm barely expands. It almost doesn't expand yet it has a fantastic track record. Expansion isn't what stops a threat like most think. It's penetration to vitals. A .45 that expands to .80 in the stomach is worse than a .380 FMJ that penetrates a vital.

WTM75 goes to the head of the class.


Another post said that the science of terminal ballistics has come a loooooong way. Perhaps so. But the science of physiology hasn't changed a bit, nor has the science of pathology. Hangun bullets kill by poking holes in people, and ER docs and ME pathologists can't tell JHP from FMJ or RNL with a patient / decedent.

We should pay much less attention to "terminal ballistics" and much more attention to (1) accurate shot placement and (2) physiology..

[Todd.K]

Another false choice. Just add "(3) Choose a tested load off the list, then get back to practice on #1" to your list.

Nobody here is advocating for a magic bullet that is a substitute for training.

[Arik]

9mm NATO (Winchester Q4318) works most excellently in my subcompact carry gun.

I give up. Sure! The other post with a doctor's first hand experience. The decades of tests and the Iraq/Afghanistan war has proven that fmj is typically inferior to hp.

The point you keep missing is that doctors see the end result and not how it happened. Doctor can see a dead body with a knife wound and proclaim it's no different than a bullet. He didn't see that maybe this guy lived for a few hours afterwards. Maybe he managed to live long enough to kill the guy who knifed him?!

Let me know when we get to the hydrostatic shock! Till then rock on dude!

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[WillBrink]

WTM75 goes to the head of the class.

I give up. Neither he nor you have any idea what you're talking about and I feel like I'm on arf.com now.

[1168]

When a Pt presents in V-Fib, can an ED doc tell which coronary vessel was occluded? No. So does that make a 100% LAD occlusion equivalent to a partial occlusion of a smaller vessel? Absolutely not.

Death is a surrogate endpoint in the “study” you are imagining. The only endpoint that matters is rapid incapacitation, with a good outcome for the guy doing the shooting.

Also, many people that are neutralized effectively by bullets never meet an ED doc, because they are called on the scene.

[wtm75]

Actually, duty ammo is more than capable of putting down man-sized game.

Edit: someone needs to test fmj through glass then gel.

On deer maybe but not on larger sized animals.

I give up. Neither he nor you have any idea what you're talking about and I feel like I'm on arf.com now.

Please do tell how I'm wrong in regards to what I said about .380. Are you telling me that a shot to the stomach with a .45 ACP is deadlier than a .380 FMJ to the heart?

Just to be clear, when I said you can prioritize expansion vs barrier performance based on your own situation, I was talking about loads on the list.

I would never recommend anyone give up minimum acceptable penetration for expansion.



Yes, you are correct. But we are not limited to those two choices, while your argument leaves the false impression that we are.

Or do you really believe 12"-18" is not enough penetration?

You are limited to subpar ammo with .380 that doesn't even make the 12 inch mark. The ones that do (XTP bullets like the Critical Duty) do so by barely expanding to .40 and change. So many are doing just that by carrying HP's in .380 and choosing expansion over penetration.

12 no. 18 yes. 12 is the absolute minimum. That minimum is not enough however when going through a leather jacket, an arm, expanding, exiting the arm while expanded, exiting the other side of the arm of the leather jacket while expanded, re-entering the leather jacket again, entering the chest while expanded, going through ribs, and traveling the whole length of the chest from the off side to the heart while expanded.

A solid bullet will do that with no problem. Now add a barrier like a car door in front of that. That's why the Critical Duty that penetrates 20 inches in gel that was chosen has a good track record.

[1168]

You are limited to subpar ammo with .380 that doesn't even make the 12 inch mark. The ones that do (XTP bullets like the Critical Duty) do so by barely expanding to .40 and change. So many are doing just that by carrying HP's in .380 and choosing expansion over penetration.

12 no. 18 yes. 12 is the absolute minimum. That minimum is not enough however when going through a leather jacket, an arm, expanding, exiting the arm while expanded, exiting the other side of the arm of the leather jacket while expanded, re-entering the leather jacket again, entering the chest while expanded, going through ribs, and traveling the whole length of the chest from the off side to the heart while expanded.

A solid bullet will do that with no problem. Now add a barrier like a car door in front of that. That's why the Critical Duty that penetrates 20 inches in gel that was chosen has a good track record.

If I’m not mistaken, Critical Duty 9mm tends to penetrate between 14 and 18 inches when fired from duty sized weapons. It only goes 20” when fired from barrels shorter than a G19.

You disagree with the FBI that 12 inches is an acceptable minimum penetration in gelatin? I tend to choose ammo that averages on the deep end of 14-18”, but the FBI didn’t pull the 12” minimum out of their collective rectums.

[wtm75]

If I’m not mistaken, Critical Duty 9mm tends to penetrate between 14 and 18 inches when fired from duty sized weapons. It only goes 20” when fired from barrels shorter than a G19.

You disagree with the FBI that 12 inches is an acceptable minimum penetration in gelatin? I tend to choose ammo that averages on the deep end of 14-18”, but the FBI didn’t pull the 12” minimum out of their collective rectums.

This is why I have a problem with 12. The Winchester 115gr Silvertip penetrated 10 to 11 inches. TNoutdoors9 got 11.25. but he used Sim Test media. That Silvertip is what started this whole mess. They went to 10 mm which made the higher 18 mark but was too much for some than downgraded to the .40 and finally the 9 which both do about 13 to 14 average. If the Silvertip failed at 11, an extra 3 inches isn't that much more for many scenarios where conditions aren't perfect.

In today's world, barriers seem to be more common. I want a round that does at least 18 and isn't going to shed it's weight. Critical Duty can fit that bill but I still feel it's short in extreme scenarios.

I'm not totally convinced with gel test numbers. MAC from the Military Arms Channel shot a pig in the shoulders with an Xtreme Penetrator that does 30 plus inches in gel and it didn't even make it past the 2nd shoulder to exit. It wasn't a huge pig either. It was average sized.

Even with FMJ's there are many cases where the round failed to completely penetrate both sides of a human body.

[MegademiC]

You are limited to subpar ammo with .380 that doesn't even make the 12 inch mark. The ones that do (XTP bullets like the Critical Duty) do so by barely expanding to .40 and change. So many are doing just that by carrying HP's in .380 and choosing expansion over penetration.

12 no. 18 yes. 12 is the absolute minimum. That minimum is not enough however when going through a leather jacket, an arm, expanding, exiting the arm while expanded, exiting the other side of the arm of the leather jacket while expanded, re-entering the leather jacket again, entering the chest while expanded, going through ribs, and traveling the whole length of the chest from the off side to the heart while expanded.

A solid bullet will do that with no problem. Now add a barrier like a car door in front of that. That's why the Critical Duty that penetrates 20 inches in gel that was chosen has a good track record.

Please link to the results of your fmj test through a car door or auto glass and calibrated ordinance gel.
Deflection matters as well...

On deer maybe but not on larger sized animals.

You do know that attempting to draw correlations, relevant to this discussion, between a bear or 1000lb moose and humans is not acceptable, right?

Because your comment makes me think that you think it is valid.