Winchester 9mm +P+ pre-Black Talon

**11Shot** · 12-03-17, 14:06

I have some 9mm Luger ammo headstamped "WCC +P+" and "8 5".
Brass case, copper bullet, 6-petal HP, flattened meplat, no (or clear) primer sealer, loaded round weight ~ 192gr, bullet weight undetermined.
If the numerals are a date, these are pre-Black Talon/Ranger and I'd like to know history, ballistics or any info you have.
Thanks.

**LMT Shooter** · 12-03-17, 14:53

It might be RA9115HP+P+, I still have some, looks identical. Mine also has the exact same headstamp. If that ain't what it is, it's probably just a different bullet.

Are you sure it's factory ammo? Is there red primer sealant?

IIRC, this was the issue load for Illinois State Police back in the day. I know little else about it.

**11Shot** · 12-03-17, 15:12

Thanks for the reply, Brett.
Primer sealer is minimal and MAY be pinkish but quantity and color is nothing like the red sealer on Black Talons.
These were given to me (not in the original box, though) by a retired LEO who doesn't reload so I'm pretty confident it's factory stuff.
FWIW, I'll note that the loaded Black Talons (bullet weight unknown) weigh ~182 gr total (10ish gr less).
BT on right:

**T2C** · 12-03-17, 15:43

It looks like LE ammunition widely sold before the Black Talon was conceived. Muzzle velocity out of a 4" S&W barrel should be 1,340 fps.

I've fired several thousand rounds of it. What else do you need to know?