Winchester 9mm +P+ pre-Black Talon

[11Shot]

I have some 9mm Luger ammo headstamped "WCC +P+" and "8 5".
Brass case, copper bullet, 6-petal HP, flattened meplat, no (or clear) primer sealer, loaded round weight ~ 192gr, bullet weight undetermined.
If the numerals are a date, these are pre-Black Talon/Ranger and I'd like to know history, ballistics or any info you have.
Thanks.

[LMT Shooter]

It might be RA9115HP+P+, I still have some, looks identical. Mine also has the exact same headstamp. If that ain't what it is, it's probably just a different bullet.

Are you sure it's factory ammo? Is there red primer sealant?

IIRC, this was the issue load for Illinois State Police back in the day. I know little else about it.

[11Shot]

Thanks for the reply, Brett.
Primer sealer is minimal and MAY be pinkish but quantity and color is nothing like the red sealer on Black Talons.
These were given to me (not in the original box, though) by a retired LEO who doesn't reload so I'm pretty confident it's factory stuff.
FWIW, I'll note that the loaded Black Talons (bullet weight unknown) weigh ~182 gr total (10ish gr less).
BT on right:

[T2C]

It looks like LE ammunition widely sold before the Black Talon was conceived. Muzzle velocity out of a 4" S&W barrel should be 1,340 fps.

I've fired several thousand rounds of it. What else do you need to know?

[11Shot]

TNX T2C - as I suspected, but I couldn't find anything online for Win +P+ other than BT and later variants.
Guess it'll make good practice fodder.

[T2C]

The chamber pressure is well above average, so shoot it out of a sturdy pistol.

[wahoo95]

That's old Winchester LE Ammo which was essentially a 115gr WWB JHP loaded to +P+ (1300fps)

Nothing in those photos even resembles anything Black Talon outside of being stamped Winchester. You keep referencing BT......are you referring to something that wasn't pictured? The original BT ammo was nickel cased and came in 147gr 9mm and wasn't loaded +P or +P+. Once Winchester pulled it from civilian sales they began using brass cases for the LE version which went by Winchester SXT which was the same name without the BT.

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[11Shot]

I've been referring to 2 different boxes of +P+ ammo but haven't had need to post a picture of the Black Talons.
I have a box with brass case and black Lubaloy 127 gr bullet, which is the Black Talon bullet even if not advertised as such.

[T2C]

I've been referring to 2 different boxes of +P+ ammo but haven't had need to post a picture of the Black Talons.
I have a box with brass case and black Lubaloy 127 gr bullet, which is the Black Talon bullet even if not advertised as such.

Winchester was trying to get LE agencies to drop the 115g +P+ and adopt the 127g Talon before politics prompted Winchester to drop the Black Talon name.

The Black Talon box is marked +P+? Is there a lot number stamped inside the box flap?

[wahoo95]

By the time the 127 hit the market the "Black" Talon name had bee dropped and they were simply Ranger. They later changed to Ranger T-Series and lost the black coating once Winchester added their line of bonded bullets to the Ranger line.

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