Daniel Shaver shooting vid (NSFW)

[lowprone]

This just further poisons the well water, Police are making relations between white people and themselves toxic.
They have already accomplished that with blacks for the most part.
This will not end well.

[RobertTheTexan]

All good points per usual, but if he feels he's the only one with valid points to make here, then bail he should..

The olive branch was extended. Moving on.

There’s been some good discussion Will. I’ve learned a few things and had more than a couple assumptions cleared up. I’m thankful for that. Several have contributed, both On the LEO side, like Firefly, 26Infabds, T2C and Chuckman, CPM, Renegade, RamAir with their own viewpoints. More info to chew on. In threads like this you can see a persons character come through their comments, much more so on a topic like this rather than discussing roll marks or charging handles.

Speaking for myself I have gathered some significant take-aways from this discussion. Some good actionable intel as I would say back in the day.

To that end, I’m going to have a discussion with my son on how to handle himself on the outside chance he gets crossed up in a bad situation. What to do and even more importantly what NOT to do.
He has a healthy respect for Law Enforcement. He clearly views them as “protectors” and authority figures. (He also knows that first line defense is in his hands or daddy’s hands.)
My point is that this has been a good healthy and educational discussion by all. Thank you for proving the venue.


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[WillBrink]

=RobertTheTexan;2573690]The olive branch was extended. Moving on.

I will only add, extended, yet not accepted.

There’s been some good discussion Will. I’ve learned a few things and had more than a couple assumptions cleared up. I’m thankful for that. Several have contributed, both On the LEO side, like Firefly, 26Infabds, T2C and Chuckman, CPM, Renegade, RamAir with their own viewpoints. More info to chew on. In threads like this you can see a persons character come through their comments, much more so on a topic like this rather than discussing roll marks or charging handles.

Speaking for myself I have gathered some significant take-aways from this discussion. Some good actionable intel as I would say back in the day.

This is one of the few forums one can gather significant take-aways because there's some very smart well informed people here and the mods do their jobs. I easily do as much learnin' here as I do teachin' in those topics that are my lane.

To that end, I’m going to have a discussion with my son on how to handle himself on the outside chance he gets crossed up in a bad situation. What to do and even more importantly what NOT to do.
He has a healthy respect for Law Enforcement. He clearly views them as “protectors” and authority figures. (He also knows that first line defense is in his hands or daddy’s hands.)
My point is that this has been a good healthy and educational discussion by all. Thank you for proving the venue.

For all concerned, there's as much to be learned from when went wrong from such an event as what went right. From the responses form LE here, I'm less empathetic to the shooter now than the OP would suggest.

[noonesshowmonkey]

I am not the only one in here with valid points. And, I am not an SME. I'm just some guy who polices; that's the extent of my creds. An SME has more experience than I do. I am, however, educated on the caselaw. The bar that I described (educated, SME, or professional) isn't even that high, nor is it exclusive to just me, much less exclusive to just cops. I posted links to the source code related to taking this matter apart, hoping that folks would read it, and having read it, get their headscratch on.

For example: nobody gives a shit who this guy was in the room with. Character assassination of the dead man (he was drunk! she was a prostitute!) has zero bearing whatever on the quality of shoot. And yet, these kinds of statements get made constantly.

I am not interested in having to unpack complicated subjects with strangers on the internet (the TPP differences and similarities between .mil and .gov Use of Force, and what each side can learn from each other, for example). I'd rather do that with men that I trust over beers, and M4C is hardly that.

If anything, I don't have anything further to contribute, and my manner was adding nothing to this thread. I'm riled up. I can't stand these shootings. I put on a badge because of this tom****ery. Obviously, I am not impartial, and that is undermining my ability to participate constructively in the discussion here. So, peace.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Two points, has it been proven that he was waving the pellet gun out the window? Or was he merely seen through the window with the pellet gun?

The only hotels with windows that open are the extended stay ones, and it is usually restricted to only a few inches. Most hotel windows don't open all. How do I know? 1300 hotel stays over the past 15 years and I really like fresh air when I sleep, and I don't get it often.

So at best he was sticking a barrel out the window, probably at the bottom.

[Firefly]

The details were a bit apocryphal of the case I alluded to but here is the link

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/officer...med-caregiver/

Of the special needs shooting. It was actually his care taker.


Anyways my sincere advice to anyone in LE or otherwise is be very, very careful who you trust or clique up with over beers.

You get the echo chamber. LE work is a Sisyphean task. You won't make it better, just try not to make it worse.

There are men with less sketchy shoots still under indictment (Ray Tensing anyone?)

When you get your first decade in, look around. Will they still be people you trust?

I highly doubt it.

The goal of policing is to survive in more ways than just one.

Get caught in a shoot.

It gets lonely.

Once you get some guys from the State and your Internal people down reading you your Garrity or a Kalkines depending, it gets real.

Super real.

There it is.

Me I'd prefer people know whats up and know that the police aren't bloodthirsty and are willing to dialogue.

Aloofness gets you so far. The only guarantee is there are no guarantees.

But I remember my rookie days too snd thought I could be "The One".

I'm The One all right. The one to say "I wouldn't do that if I were you."

But thats a general statement and it can be taken personally or constructively

[ramairthree]

If the guy is standing up, looking straight at you, walking towards you, I can see that. But would you still shoot him if he was on his hands and knees, head down, not looking at you, and has attempted to follow all your instructions up until then?

I think any unarmed civilian who doesn't want to get shot by the police has a dog in this fight and should be free to express their opinion here; not just LE/lawyers. You don't have to be educated, an SME, or work in the field to have a logical, reasoned and intelligent discussion.

I think my disconnect from others is that being face down = not a threat.
All manner of pistols, grenades, suicide vests, suicide belts, etc. are still possible.
( obviously I am more talking about a pistol here)

The poor, dumb bastard in the video - who could have been packaged up moments after contact, was instead given a long period of time being jacked around resulting in a long time to be covered, as time to do something that could be threatening increased, while being given commands that actually increased the odds of him to do something threatening, in a manner that also upped the likelihood of him slipping up. But I can’t hold that against the guy covering him.

Now if some guy pulls up in my driveway, uninvited on my property, looking a little confused, steps out of his car, saying, hey I am sorry to bother you, I think I am lost, and reaches into his pocket....
I am not going to instantly Miami Vice Mozambique him.
He will pull out the invite to the Christmas party at Colonel so and sos house down the road and I will tell him he turned down my driveway, not the road he wants further on and all will be well.

But, if I had seem him waving a pistol around outside his car window on his way, and he is acting off and not totally with it,
Whether he is standing there after complying with stop and put your hands up, or get down and put your hands out,
Then changes azimuth and shoots a hand for where I think that pistol is...
That’s a threat.

I am sorry I am the only one here with that opinion, but it’s the one I have.

It seems my opinion is that of a heartless, cold blooded, looking for a chance to murder somebody menace to society. Oddly enough, I have made it to almost 50 without killing a bunch of my fellow Americans, and shown restraint on indigs in more than one country who are still alive.

After the fact, you can AAR out whether you should have shown less or more restraint, or if it was just right. But you have to keep in mind what things reasonably seem like at that past moment in real time.

If you are running at me in the dark from the building where you were making IEDs, suicide belts, and other accessories, and you get your spleen shot through your aorta and out your kidney with some liver tagging along at a dead sprint,
Or stopped and looked like you were planting your feet for a grenade toss and got part of your humerus blown through your chest,
I am not going to lose any sleep if it turns out you had left your AK, pistol, and vest in the building. Not a lick.

If I had been the shooter in the video, thinking I had killed a guy going for a gun, but had no gun, and was not some known bad guy who had been up to bad shit, it would be horrible. I don’t know how someone moves on from that. But I don’t think they should eat a murder charge.

They only drunk guy getting captured I have experience with was GAFing out of Tikrit to Baiji and catching enough BIT info for a couple of follow on OBJs and hitting the lottery on some info and then hit the then reigning sniper of Baiji.

After primary assault went in and we were doing our thing, he was being covered. In skivvies and a bath robe. Shit faced with a near empty bottle of liquor at his side and watching a soccer game on TV.
While he had been sitting in a recliner. With even a few racy things for the wife in the back of the closet where his rifle was. Begging to just not hurt his family, and he would do anything we want, and being drunk, he did some things going overboard on complying and trying to be helpful that would have been OK to shoot him for. He did not get shot.

That is my sole experience with a drunk guy in a tactical environment. Which is probably about .00001% of a LEOs annual experience with drunk guys doing violent stuff.

On the other hand, some guys already down and in the process of getting rolled up, despite being scared, confused, etc. have done some desperate things that got them killed. They were being covered for a reason. Which kept them from doing something that would have got our guys killed. Not making eye contact or looking at you seems to be a pretty common preflight check before these guys do something desperate.

So I have to honestly say being prone and not looking at me does not put me in a warm and fuzzy relaxed safe space.

In a non tactical environment, I have significantly more encounters with drunk people. Who often go from I Love You Man to violent very fast. All the more reason to have rolled him up faster.

Anyways,
That should sum up why - in and of itself -
I would not vote for a murder charge for the shooter.

And

Why I think it was within reason to think the guy was reaching for a gun, in a situation where it was reasonable to think the guy had a gun.

[ramairthree]

The only hotels with windows that open are the extended stay ones, and it is usually restricted to only a few inches. Most hotel windows don't open all. How do I know? 1300 hotel stays over the past 15 years and I really like fresh air when I sleep, and I don't get it often.

So at best he was sticking a barrel out the window, probably at the bottom.

In cities that has been my experience.

In more resorty like places,
I prefer to book in ones with the little balcony things.

[tb-av]

The trial stems from a Jan. 18, 2016, incident at a Mesa La Quinta Inn, where Shaver was staying. Police had responded to the hotel for a call about a person pointing a gun outside of a fifth-floor window. A couple inside a hotel hot tub told staff that they saw a silhouette with a gun pointed toward the room's window.

If that statement by a news outlet is correct the gun would have to be fully inside the room.

Other reports say "out the window"

Photos from scene with sliding window open... BUT... I can't tell if there is a screen in place or not. So maybe they saw through screen? He removed screen? Who knows.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...now/871689001/

[RobertTheTexan]

I
But, if I had seem him waving a pistol around outside his car window on his way, and he is acting off and not totally with it,
Whether he is standing there after complying with stop and put your hands up, or get down and put your hands out,
Then changes azimuth and shoots a hand for where I think that pistol is...
That’s a threat.

I am sorry I am the only one here with that opinion, but it’s the one I have.

It seems my opinion is that of a heartless, cold blooded, looking for a chance to murder somebody menace to society. Oddly enough, I have made it to almost 50 without killing a bunch of my fellow Americans, and shown restraint on indigs in more than one country who are still alive.

Call me crazy but I don’t have that opinion of you. Besides sticks and stones don’t eve break bones unless they are accompanied with a baseball bat. Or a a sign post for example.

You have your way of thinking. All hat stuff you talked about defines your thought process.

And yes if I saw a guy - a stranger waving a gun around and then drive up to my house and reach to his console there’s a good chance I’m going to draw and sidestep one or the other direction probably offset to the right and if I see metal and gun or whatever, I imagine I will apply deadly force.

Deadly Force: deadly force is the force which when used will cause serious bodily harm or death.

That was my definition back in the Nuke days.

The issue find milks are having was that a) did he wave something around and b) he was not in a place to fire a weapon he didn’t have.

For me the scenario aren’t identical. Close but close but not the same.


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