Daniel Shaver shooting vid (NSFW)

[TAZ]

I truly do not understand the Officer’s commands, and I’m not drunk yet. Keep your hands straight up or I’ll shoot you. Keep you feet crossed or I’ll shoot you. Now crawl to me. WTF??? How the **** is someone supposed to keep their hands up and feet crossed but crawl to you??

To me it looks like the dumbass was reaching to pull his pants up as he was pantsing himself with all the crawling.

I’ve no idea what the SOP is for holding folks at gunpoint, but the crawl to me with your hands up and feet crossed needs to change.

Not sure about murder as the guy was clearly reaching for something behind his back. When you’re responding to a call about guys waving guns out of windows after the LV fiasco, a reasonable person would assume reaching for said gun not to pull his pants up.

[Renegade]

When you’re responding to a call about guys waving guns out of windows after the LV fiasco,

This occurred Jan 18, 2016.

a reasonable person would assume reaching for said gun not to pull his pants up.

Are you a reasonable person? Here is what you said in same post:

To me it looks like the dumbass was reaching to pull his pants up as he was pantsing himself with all the crawling.

[CPM]

That’s an officer who hasn’t spent a lot of time being shot at, shooting at people, or seeing the results of someone who has been shot. He is playing a role as he thinks it should be played. Or he’s a real life Farva. Either way he murdered a crying kid in cold blood.

Maybe I’m an anomaly, maybe it’s the time I spent on the ground overseas, but I just don't get that worked up over situations like that.

I recently had a friend describe to me how creeped out he was by my deadpan reaction when a round skipped over a berm when we were shooting, zinged by us and I explained how far away it actually was.

[tb-av]

Will, it's quite possible the kid's pants were falling down from being told to crawl on his knees. It could have been a long term natural reaction to wearing jeans and no belt or a loose belt. the average citizen does not realize that putting your hands behind you is a gesture to kill a cop. As a friend of mine used to say. We ought to have the right to be stupid, but unfortunately....

As you say, we will never know.

what I find odd, and never hear it spoken of.... when civi and LEO train they always fail. Then they are taught how to succeed, then they are taken up in elevations as they wish to go to. Each level they fail, correct, succeed.

However a civilian such as this kid is given no chance to fail. He can't be emotionally compromised. He can't be mentally deficient. Plenty of people might respond 'yes I understand you' but it was clear that kid was incapable of following orders and the LEO was piss poor in giving those orders in the context of that situation. Especially to that kid.

You know, we will never know what the jury heard or saw and how they came to the conclusion they reached.

Once they had the girl the guy was a no-brainer.

I can see how it would be viewed as a justified shooting,

I can see it as manipulated murder. Remember the LEO is the paid professional and professionals in practically all industries are held to higher standards. He clearly was calling the shots. He had the guy where he wanted him then he kept on him and he -had to know- due to his level of professional training and service that he could get him to make a mistake and for whatever reason he had determined that if you make a mistake I get to kill you. Comply or die even though all my training has shown that in these situations you will make a mistake of non-compliance.

He knew he had compromised the kid the first time he put his hands behind his back. He should have had him lay back down ( never should have had him crawl to him anyway.) I'm surprised he didn't ask him to recite the alphabet backwards while he was shouting more physical instructions. There is a SEAL training documentary, I think it was a TV show. I'll never forget they were at the pool and the instructor was explaining to the commentator the concept of failure. He said, we are not here to break them. We could break every one of them in 15 minutes. That's not why we are here.

The question is not why did the kid reach for his pants. the question is... after the kid had already done so and was emotionally distraught, why did the professional press the dialog such that it could happen again. There was no need to do so. It's called plan B. We deal with plans b,c,d,e,f,g all day every day. That LEO was a one way kind of guy and his way was do or die no matter what. He watched that kid repeatedly fail and kept pressing him. There was no other expectation a reasonable person could expect other than continued failure, which it that LEO's book means death.

Based on what's there, and responding to gun out the window and all that... All I see is a gung-ho murder. You keep screaming at a compromised person that if they screw up one instruction you will kill them.... well, I can pretty well guarantee you, there will be blood on the floor in short order.

I would think the family has a wrongful death suit.

Yeah, I would rank that one up there in the disturbingly unnecessary category.

[BBossman]

"You put your right hand in, You put your right hand out, You put your right hand in, And you shake it all about..."

Somebody will be revising policies and procedures.

[CPM]

I’m surprised no one pointed out that when the first round went you could see his hand coming back empty.

[chuckman]

I think murder 2 was prosecutorial overreach. I do wonder if they had lesser crimes as an option to deliberate. If they did shame on the jury.

[scooter22]

Douchebag cop executes kid.

Disgusting.


Official Kremlin Transmission

[WillBrink]

Will, it's quite possible the kid's pants were falling down from being told to crawl on his knees. It could have been a long term natural reaction to wearing jeans and no belt or a loose belt. the average citizen does not realize that putting your hands behind you is a gesture to kill a cop.

Which brings me to, why did he make him crawl vs what I outlined in the OP? Reasons that I suggested? Other? What this says to me, as a non LEO, is LEOs need more training and more ongoing training which only seems to be getting worse. The LEO was obviously at max adrenal dump and very fast to go to lethal response, due to a number of obvious factors, and being unable to handle the situation, perhaps compensating with gung ho pho bravado (I bet he was scared out of his mind vs any type of internal composure, but hypothesis on my end...) and that was the result. He's not fit to be a peace officer. In some cases like this this, the PD might revue and or revamp SOP, add additional training, etc, but many will simply blame the LEO, the state will pay out, and it's back to biz as usual. In the big picture beyond this event, that's what I see as the systemic issue and the elephant in the room. That guy, was not prepared for that situation, and although technically in the right as far as the jury went, a death that was in all likelihood preventable. Training costs $, and it's probably cheaper to pay the settlement that train people up to such things, and that's a horrible cost analysis. I see this event more as a symptom of a larger issue than just his being as you described per se, and I think that needs to be discussed.

LEOs can also say I'm not LE and don't know WTF I'm talking about, but worked with and around enough experienced LE to know, they know exactly what I'm talking about...

[Firefly]

The crawling was pure laziness or ignorance and goes against the basic concept of Cover/Contact officer.

This isnt a felony traffic stop. When someone is one the ground

LEAVE THEM ON THE GROUND.

Either he is a threat and should remain in a surrender posture or he is not a threat and you are allowing him to approach.

It can't be both.

I see an over equipped and under experienced officer here.

Manslaughter would have been a solid and much needed conviction.

Instead of confusing people just tell them to lay prone and eagle with palms up. It is less fatiguing on them, less confusing, and they aren't going anywhere