Getting bigger while cutting fat - possible? Also - diet

[Eurodriver]

So it’s been like 2 weeks since I made this thread. I’ve kept track of every meal I’ve eaten and gone to the gym every M-F since. I’ve done no cardio, just weight lifting, due to an injury.

I am averaging a bit under 2,000 calories a day over those 2 weeks. My weight has stayed exactly the same. To the pound. However I’ve noticed a little less stomach jiggles and a little more arm and shoulder definition.

I am playing around with it day by day. My macros are about 190g of Protein, 100g of Carbs and 87g of Fat. I know I can shed fat super quick going Keto (I did it a year ago) but I also know that I can’t keep that up forever. There’s at least once a week I will eat fried chicken wings or something.

What’s odd is that my weight hasn’t fluctuated at all. My BMR is about 1950 for my height and weight and yet I am working out for over an hour five days a week eating essentially my BMR in calories. Should I drop the calories or what?

[Eurodriver]

This is Will’s lane and I recommend you defer to him, but he may be slightly biased based on his client base. Trained athletes or even past athlete’s bodies respond differently than the normal Joe’s. You don’t strike me as a normal Joe and I would speculate your body is training adapted.

In my experience, you can “recomp” (lose fat while you gain muscle) if you’re a newbie to training with > 15% body fat and you do everything right. Once your body is training adapted and your BF < 15% it is next to impossible maintain muscle mass in a calorie deficit. Even if you run gear you will lose muscle at that level.

I made a plan in September 2017 and set the goal of maintaining lean body mass and dropping BF% through the end of June 2018.
September LBM 194.63, BF% 12.8.
January LBM 190.82, BF% 10.53.
Note – there is no way in hell I’m actually 10.5 BF%. Eyeball test puts me more in the 15-18% range. Point is that my measuring tools are the same over time and I track my numbers and adjust my workouts and diet accordingly. It is easier to articulate, measure and track LBM and BF% than it is to say, “I want a diet and exercise plan that will make me look hot AF”.
I think I can see the 2% BF reduction in the mirror but I’ve had that sumobitch lie to me in the past. So, I use real measurements I can track, log and react to. I have lost about 4 lbs. of LBM because I'm on a slight deficit. Did I mention I track stuff so I can make informed decisions?
I’m 56 so I have a few more data points on myself than most of you babies out there. I’m a classic endomorph, ex-football lineman and I’m training adapted over 40 years.

I track and log everything; Workouts, food intake, BF %, weight, sleep, mood, bowl movements, number of wives, etc. OCD I know but I’ve had to overcome some challenges during my life and this is the only way I stay consistently on track. And I have staff to do the grunt work.

Notice I have not mentioned diet or workouts. I’m currently on a brand new super-secret diet and workout plan that combines intermittent quantum cord resistance training with buttered barbells that I’m not authorized to discuss. Ditto the sous vide unicorn and squirrel protein diet that I supplement with whole grain suppositories. I will offer details next month on a subscription basis that will include video clips of me and my rotund German masseuse. I’m taking bitcoin prepayments if any of you are interested. Except Firefly. He gets the program for free cause eloquent ‘redneck. StyerAug gets free videos of my masseuse as soon as someone on my staff can find a VHS player. I will give away a free box of the whole grain suppositories if you guys can vote a winner.

Jokes aside.
Make a plan. Stick to said plan. Track your progress against your plan.
Eat real food. Track and record your intake and quantify what works best for you.
Lift, push and pull heavy stuff. Track and record your progress and quantify what works best for you.
Fix your mind. Really. If you continue to ignore it you are destined to wander through life, do dumb chit and break everything you touch. If you’re active on this forum you have mental issues so get over it. Yes, I’m talking to you. Fix your brain, fix your life. Do this first and track on.

I like you a lot.

[TexasGunNut]

So it’s been like 2 weeks since I made this thread. I’ve kept track of every meal I’ve eaten and gone to the gym every M-F since. I’ve done no cardio, just weight lifting, due to an injury.

I am averaging a bit under 2,000 calories a day over those 2 weeks. My weight has stayed exactly the same. To the pound. However I’ve noticed a little less stomach jiggles and a little more arm and shoulder definition.

I am playing around with it day by day. My macros are about 190g of Protein, 100g of Carbs and 87g of Fat. I know I can shed fat super quick going Keto (I did it a year ago) but I also know that I can’t keep that up forever. There’s at least once a week I will eat fried chicken wings or something.

What’s odd is that my weight hasn’t fluctuated at all. My BMR is about 1950 for my height and weight and yet I am working out for over an hour five days a week eating essentially my BMR in calories. Should I drop the calories or what?

Sounds like you're on track. You're not going to see the needle move in two or even four weeks. I like your calories and macros so keep running, tracking and see how YOU respond. Trust your eye if the jiggle meter seems better. As long as the scale tells you you aren't gaining you can actually recomp in the early stages. After a few more weeks assess where you are and adjust accordingly to meet your goals. If you aren't progressing drop some carbs and/or fat to see if you lose some pounds. You need to find a way to fuel your body that you can live with long term. Invest the time now so you can get your diet on autopilot and move on to more important things. Like a second home in the mountains.

My youngest son is built like you. It took him a solid year to dial in his diet, macros and exercise to gain mass and lean up. But he has his own IMDd page and tons of prime a$$ chasing him. In the beginning he had to really restrict his calories just to get his body to budge. Last I checked he is running 3400 calories to maintain 180 lbs LBM. Again, you are different and your goals are different. He works out 2-3 hours per day but that's his job. Point is, if he quit working out it would take weeks for his BMR to drop and it took many weeks of work for his BMR to go up.

My angle on this is that I work with my mind. If I'm not sharp I don't perform and if I don't perform I let a lot of people down. That, I will not do.
My meat is the support system for my brain. If my body is average I can't expect my brain to be above average. So I found a way over the years to determine what made me tick. Then I fine-tuned, modified and applied. As I've aged I've had to adjust but I have constantly improved my cognitive output over the years by tracking, measuring and applying what works for me. It's nice to have my wife drool over my manly chest but let's be honest; she really loves my mind.

I'm not average because I decided years ago to be the best possible version of ME. You don't strike me as someone content to be average. The last 5% of excellence is harder to reach than the first 95% of mediocre. But it is more than worth the effort.

Keep me posted on your progress.

[WS6]

Sounds like you're on track. You're not going to see the needle move in two or even four weeks. I like your calories and macros so keep running, tracking and see how YOU respond. Trust your eye if the jiggle meter seems better. As long as the scale tells you you aren't gaining you can actually recomp in the early stages. After a few more weeks assess where you are and adjust accordingly to meet your goals. If you aren't progressing drop some carbs and/or fat to see if you lose some pounds. You need to find a way to fuel your body that you can live with long term. Invest the time now so you can get your diet on autopilot and move on to more important things. Like a second home in the mountains.

My youngest son is built like you. It took him a solid year to dial in his diet, macros and exercise to gain mass and lean up. But he has his own IMDd page and tons of prime a$$ chasing him. In the beginning he had to really restrict his calories just to get his body to budge. Last I checked he is running 3400 calories to maintain 180 lbs LBM. Again, you are different and your goals are different. He works out 2-3 hours per day but that's his job. Point is, if he quit working out it would take weeks for his BMR to drop and it took many weeks of work for his BMR to go up.

My angle on this is that I work with my mind. If I'm not sharp I don't perform and if I don't perform I let a lot of people down. That, I will not do.
My meat is the support system for my brain. If my body is average I can't expect my brain to be above average. So I found a way over the years to determine what made me tick. Then I fine-tuned, modified and applied. As I've aged I've had to adjust but I have constantly improved my cognitive output over the years by tracking, measuring and applying what works for me. It's nice to have my wife drool over my manly chest but let's be honest; she really loves my mind.

I'm not average because I decided years ago to be the best possible version of ME. You don't strike me as someone content to be average. The last 5% of excellence is harder to reach than the first 95% of mediocre. But it is more than worth the effort.

Keep me posted on your progress.

THIS! x1000!!!! I work in healthcare, which, by and large, is filled with slobs, as an industry, in my experience and opinion. I just got calipered at 14.5% the other day, and 200.6#, at 5'10.75" in sockfeet. That is soft as **** in my book. I used to hang out around 10%, but like I said...healthcare. SO, anyways, whittling it down. I don't know many guys who roll around at single digit body fat who work in a job where fitness doesn't matter. I plan to be one of them. If you're similar, then you know exactly what this means, or will, by the time you get there, for sure. It's a pain but worth it.

[thebarracuda]

.... quantum cord resistance training with buttered barbells.... unicorn and squirrel protein diet that I supplement with whole grain suppositories..... rotund German masseuse.

At first i was skeptical, but after trying this the last two weeks... It works!!!!

[Dr. Bullseye]

The key to weight control is 90% diet. Forget exercise. You can stay home, eat all day long and get bigger (around the middle) or you can stop eating and lose fat---it will fly off with absolutely no food. But, to do what you want to do, get a little bigger and stronger while losing body fat, you have to do specific exercises. You must push your body beyond its hope of recovery. Of course you can only do this for short bursts or you will die of a heart attack. This is interval training. While in the over stressed mode, your body will burn fat. Since it was surplus, your body won't be so quick to call for it to be replaced. In other words it won't make you as hungry. Weight lifting or any resistance exercise has the opposite result, it makes you disproportionately hungry. That is why guys wanting to just gain weight lift weights.

There are many ways to achieve this now. The TV "P-90" type workouts, sprint-jog intervals, circuit training on a universal type machine, swimming sprints, etc. The important thing is to go deep into your reserves for much longer than makes you comfortable which is followed by rest or cool down training and then repeat. You should want to vomit after this or you are not working hard enough. And this is precisely why this type of training is so infrequently done by people. They are lazy, want to stay in their comfort zone and do what they have always done and hope to become lean, cut giants. If you have the will to do this, you will drop fat. Once the fat is off you can go back to whatever weightlifting routine makes you happy.

[WS6]

The key to weight control is 90% diet. Forget exercise. You can stay home, eat all day long and get bigger (around the middle) or you can stop eating and lose fat---it will fly off with absolutely no food. But, to do what you want to do, get a little bigger and stronger while losing body fat, you have to do specific exercises. You must push your body beyond its hope of recovery. Of course you can only do this for short bursts or you will die of a heart attack. This is interval training. While in the over stressed mode, your body will burn fat. Since it was surplus, your body won't be so quick to call for it to be replaced. In other words it won't make you as hungry. Weight lifting or any resistance exercise has the opposite result, it makes you disproportionately hungry. That is why guys wanting to just gain weight lift weights.

There are many ways to achieve this now. The TV "P-90" type workouts, sprint-jog intervals, circuit training on a universal type machine, swimming sprints, etc. The important thing is to go deep into your reserves for much longer than makes you comfortable which is followed by rest or cool down training and then repeat. You should want to vomit after this or you are not working hard enough. And this is precisely why this type of training is so infrequently done by people. They are lazy, want to stay in their comfort zone and do what they have always done and hope to become lean, cut giants. If you have the will to do this, you will drop fat. Once the fat is off you can go back to whatever weightlifting routine makes you happy.

I work with a nurse who did diet ONLY. She has gone from being obese to being trim and healthy, although her muscle-mass obviously has not improved, and she of course has loose skin, etc. (she is also in her 60's).

As to the Crossfit style training you describe above, I've tried it. It's bullshit. Sorry. It creates training scars, injuries, puts you at higher risk for cardiac issues, and results in becoming weak without any appreciable side effects in my personal experience in over a year doing it. I stopped and am stronger, leaner, and more powerful now. I also keep that $100/mo in my pocket. Before I left my "box", I quietly observed. My final actions were to interview some of the larger guys there. None of them who stopped conventional training in favor of CF have added weight to movements. They have gotten weaker. Further, I sat and observed one night. I saw that the biggest, most ripped guys would be doing real training before "class", and afterward, would do low intensity long duration cardio (surprise...just like has worked for decades...) such as jogging, or rowing at a moderate pace on the rowers. None of the big guys got big doing CF, nor did they get ripped doing it. CF was done for fun, flexibility, and social aspects. Not serious training for much of anything, in my observation. Maybe this is why none of the gymnasts or weight lifters who actually hold Olympic medals do it for preparation?

My own personal results were a loss of strength, 1 moderate injury, and gaining of body fat towards the end. It was the result of over-training, and neglecting diet (I have previously neglected diet without poor results, I might add, regarding strength. This was the first time I have ever lost strength training 4-6x a week WHILE GAINING WEIGHT!).

[bp7178]

The key to weight control is 90% diet. Forget exercise. You can stay home, eat all day long and get bigger (around the middle) or you can stop eating and lose fat---it will fly off with absolutely no food. But, to do what you want to do, get a little bigger and stronger while losing body fat, you have to do specific exercises. You must push your body beyond its hope of recovery. Of course you can only do this for short bursts or you will die of a heart attack. This is interval training. While in the over stressed mode, your body will burn fat. Since it was surplus, your body won't be so quick to call for it to be replaced. In other words it won't make you as hungry. Weight lifting or any resistance exercise has the opposite result, it makes you disproportionately hungry. That is why guys wanting to just gain weight lift weights.

There are many ways to achieve this now. The TV "P-90" type workouts, sprint-jog intervals, circuit training on a universal type machine, swimming sprints, etc. The important thing is to go deep into your reserves for much longer than makes you comfortable which is followed by rest or cool down training and then repeat. You should want to vomit after this or you are not working hard enough. And this is precisely why this type of training is so infrequently done by people. They are lazy, want to stay in their comfort zone and do what they have always done and hope to become lean, cut giants. If you have the will to do this, you will drop fat. Once the fat is off you can go back to whatever weightlifting routine makes you happy.

Pretty horrible advice...so bad its really hard to know where to jump in.

[skywalkrNCSU]

I work with a nurse who did diet ONLY. She has gone from being obese to being trim and healthy, although her muscle-mass obviously has not improved, and she of course has loose skin, etc. (she is also in her 60's).

As to the Crossfit style training you describe above, I've tried it. It's bullshit. Sorry. It creates training scars, injuries, puts you at higher risk for cardiac issues, and results in becoming weak without any appreciable side effects in my personal experience in over a year doing it. I stopped and am stronger, leaner, and more powerful now. I also keep that $100/mo in my pocket. Before I left my "box", I quietly observed. My final actions were to interview some of the larger guys there. None of them who stopped conventional training in favor of CF have added weight to movements. They have gotten weaker. Further, I sat and observed one night. I saw that the biggest, most ripped guys would be doing real training before "class", and afterward, would do low intensity long duration cardio (surprise...just like has worked for decades...) such as jogging, or rowing at a moderate pace on the rowers. None of the big guys got big doing CF, nor did they get ripped doing it. CF was done for fun, flexibility, and social aspects. Not serious training for much of anything, in my observation. Maybe this is why none of the gymnasts or weight lifters who actually hold Olympic medals do it for preparation?

My own personal results were a loss of strength, 1 moderate injury, and gaining of body fat towards the end. It was the result of over-training, and neglecting diet (I have previously neglected diet without poor results, I might add, regarding strength. This was the first time I have ever lost strength training 4-6x a week WHILE GAINING WEIGHT!).

I’m certainly not an advocate of CrossFit but your issues likely stemmed from poor programming and coaching more than anything. I did CrossFit for a few years and was squatting in the 400’s and deadlifting close to 500 while also being in good shape cardio wise. The reason you don’t see any specialist athletes doing CrossFit is because that would be incredibly stupid. If you have a distinct goal like Olympic lifting, power lifting, gymnastics, bodybuilding, etc then you would be far better off specifically training for that goal.

When programmed intelligently and with a good diet CrossFit should make you stronger and give you better cardio. Not stronger or better cardio than if you specifically trained for those things mind you but most people train to not be a fatty and be in better overall shape. When it isn’t programmed intelligently then injuries and other issues are common and this is a big issue in CrossFit considering the requirements to open a “box” are pathetic.

The approach I go with these days is an intelligently programmed strength program and some cardio that can consist of traditional cardio as well as cross training style workouts. When you control the programming you don’t have to worry about some moron overworking your shoulders and setting you up for injuries for example.

[WS6]

I’m certainly not an advocate of CrossFit but your issues likely stemmed from poor programming and coaching more than anything. I did CrossFit for a few years and was squatting in the 400’s and deadlifting close to 500 while also being in good shape cardio wise. The reason you don’t see any specialist athletes doing CrossFit is because that would be incredibly stupid. If you have a distinct goal like Olympic lifting, power lifting, gymnastics, bodybuilding, etc then you would be far better off specifically training for that goal.

When programmed intelligently and with a good diet CrossFit should make you stronger and give you better cardio. Not stronger or better cardio than if you specifically trained for those things mind you but most people train to not be a fatty and be in better overall shape. When it isn’t programmed intelligently then injuries and other issues are common and this is a big issue in CrossFit considering the requirements to open a “box” are pathetic.

The approach I go with these days is an intelligently programmed strength program and some cardio that can consist of traditional cardio as well as cross training style workouts. When you control the programming you don’t have to worry about some moron overworking your shoulders and setting you up for injuries for example.

We had guys squatting over 500#, cleaning 385, etc. ...but they didn't get that way in a "box". I now control my programming and am far better off for it.