5.45x.39 versus 5.56x.45

[Wolf.545 x .39]

This has always interested me as I have an AK74 and an AR15. I have no rounds through my Colt LE6920 yet but have a few thousand through the AK74 shooting non corrosive ammo. Having said that I have 7N6 in my defensive mags and another 2,000 rounds not loaded in mags. For 5.56 I have Hornady Tap 2 in my 30 and 40 round mags. I also have 5.56 Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw for a penetrating round if needed. Does the yaw of the 5.45 in 7N6 make it a much more lethal round than any round in 5.56. It tumbles like mad in a 16 inch barrel like nothing I ever seen. My question is can any civilian 5.56 round cause the kind of terminal damage the 5.45 causes?? I love both platforms and I can't wait to get my Colt to a range soon. Alot of very expensive 5.56 rounds but I never seen a 5.56 round that tumbles as much as the 7N6 round does in ballistic gel (5.45). I'm buying probably a .308 semi auto next but haven't ruled out another AK74 or AR15.

[MegademiC]

I suggest you look at the terminal ballistics forum.
Yes, many rounds, especially bonded hps like your bear claw or federal fusion offer superior ballistics than 5.45.
Tumbling is not the best wounding mechanism. Your t2 will tumble and frag which does much more tissue damage.
Bonded rounds expand leading to increased surface area (wounding like a tumbling bullet), but it creates a consistent wound channel. It also tends to travel straighter, and offers better barrier penetration.

In short, bonded rounds let you have cake and eat it too.

[Wolf.545 x .39]

I suggest you look at the terminal ballistics forum.
Yes, many rounds, especially bonded hps like your bear claw or federal fusion offer superior ballistics than 5.45.
Tumbling is not the best wounding mechanism. Your t2 will tumble and frag which does much more tissue damage.
Bonded rounds expand leading to increased surface area (wounding like a tumbling bullet), but it creates a consistent wound channel. It also tends to travel straighter, and offers better barrier penetration.

In short, bonded rounds let you have cake and eat it too.

Yeah I tend to over think things. I like the AK74 though. Not many bullet choices compared to 5.56. I may look to get a Smith & Wesson M&P 10 in .308. Its gained confidence in the gun community. I also don't like to continue buying 7N6 through the internet because thats the only place I can still find it.

[The Mig]

I suggest you look at the terminal ballistics forum.
Yes, many rounds, especially bonded hps like your bear claw or federal fusion offer superior ballistics than 5.45.
Tumbling is not the best wounding mechanism. Your t2 will tumble and frag which does much more tissue damage.
Bonded rounds expand leading to increased surface area (wounding like a tumbling bullet), but it creates a consistent wound channel. It also tends to travel straighter, and offers better barrier penetration.

In short, bonded rounds let you have cake and eat it too.

This. Relying on something to tumble isn't a reliable plan for stopping a deadly threat. I'm not trying to imply anything here but it seems like that's what you're asking. It's been well documented over the years that 5.56 rounds can be so-so at stopping humans. The solution to that for those of us who are stuck with a 5.56 platform are shot placement and follow-up shots. Don't take my word for it, read Blackhawk Down by Mark Bowden or We were soldiers once by Hal Moore. Here's a more modern reference- 12 years after Somalia, a close friend of mine was shooting an M-4 at insurgents in the Kandari Market (Baghdad) Iraq. He wondered how he could shoot guys five times and they still made it across the street. It turns out that when his squad moved up the street, they found dead insurgents stacked up in the alleys.

Here's a story about something that actually happened to me. The police department I work for issues Federal 62 grain bonded PSP for patrol rifles. One night, I got into an incident where a guy with a shotgun came at me and two friends. One friend, armed with a RRA AR-15 shot nine rounds at him and hit him once, right below the sternum. He flopped around and lived long enough to crawl halfway across a house before he died in the master bathroom. That one modern, expensive bonded duty round killed him completely dead but not instantly. He could have still shot back at us if he was determined to do so.

In conclusion, no matter what rifle or round you're using- if you can put five in the center chest of what you're trying to stop it will probably stop. Maybe you're getting too hung up on the performance of something that was not designed for one shot stops.

[Arik]

This. Relying on something to tumble isn't a reliable plan for stopping a deadly threat. I'm not trying to imply anything here but it seems like that's what you're asking. It's been well documented over the years that 5.56 rounds can be so-so at stopping humans. The solution to that for those of us who are stuck with a 5.56 platform are shot placement and follow-up shots. Don't take my word for it, read Blackhawk Down by Mark Bowden or We were soldiers once by Hal Moore. Here's a more modern reference- 12 years after Somalia, a close friend of mine was shooting an M-4 at insurgents in the Kandari Market (Baghdad) Iraq. He wondered how he could shoot guys five times and they still made it across the street. It turns out that when his squad moved up the street, they found dead insurgents stacked up in the alleys.

Here's a story about something that actually happened to me. The police department I work for issues Federal 62 grain bonded PSP for patrol rifles. One night, I got into an incident where a guy with a shotgun came at me and two friends. One friend, armed with a RRA AR-15 shot nine rounds at him and hit him once, right below the sternum. He flopped around and lived long enough to crawl halfway across a house before he died in the master bathroom. That one modern, expensive bonded duty round killed him completely dead but not instantly. He could have still shot back at us if he was determined to do so.

In conclusion, no matter what rifle or round you're using- if you can put five in the center chest of what you're trying to stop it will probably stop. Maybe you're getting too hung up on the performance of something that was not designed for one shot stops.

And there have been multiple recorded instances of hajis absorbing 50BMJ and continuing to fight, something taking several before dying. There was even an Indian soldier who took dozens of rounds of 30 Cal from an MG as he stormed the pill box and killed those inside. He lived. There was even a guy who survived TWO atomic bombs and the radiation and died in his 90s.

There is no guarantee unless the CNS is severed and even then some people survive being shot in the head

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[The Mig]

And there have been multiple recorded instances of hajis absorbing 50BMJ and continuing to fight, something taking several before dying. There was even an Indian soldier who took dozens of rounds of 30 Cal from an MG as he stormed the pill box and killed those inside. He lived. There was even a guy who survived TWO atomic bombs and the radiation and died in his 90s.

There is no guarantee unless the CNS is severed and even then some people survive being shot in the head

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Ok, looks like we took different ways to get there but made the same point. CNS shutdown is the only reliant way to stop an attacking human. All other wounds just cause varying levels of bleeding, so the person shot will slowly depressurize until passing out leading to organ shutdown/death.

[RetroRevolver77]

Ok, looks like we took different ways to get there but made the same point. CNS shutdown is the only reliant way to stop an attacking human. All other wounds just cause varying levels of bleeding, so the person shot will slowly depressurize until passing out leading to organ shutdown/death.

Breaking the hips, legs, or severing CNS will put someone down quickly. While 5.56 will definitely break bones in the extremities, it will quickly loses energy once it fragments for a more center of mass shot. Sure the person will die due to the massive trauma but they can likely still stand and continue fighting until they bleed out. That's the one quality I like about 5.45 is that it retains energy, such that it could punch through the center mass and come out through the spine or through the hips dropping the person quickly. However we're not in Eastern Europe so there is no reason to even consider standardizing on 5.45 over 5.56NATO. I was lured by the cheap surplus 7n6 so I bought a lot of it but I prefer 5.56 overall.

[Arik]

Don't overthink it. There is no magic bullet. Use quality ammo for either caliber

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[1168]

My opinion:
5.56>5.45>7.62x39,mainly due to ammo types. If forced to use ball, I don’t think 5.56 and 5.45 are different enough for me to care. The bonded soft points available in 5.56, along with the M4 platform itself, make it my top choice.

I would not feel under-gunned with a 74 type rifle.

[Wolf.545 x .39]

My opinion:
5.56>5.45>7.62x39,mainly due to ammo types. If forced to use ball, I don’t think 5.56 and 5.45 are different enough for me to care. The bonded soft points available in 5.56, along with the M4 platform itself, make it my top choice.

I would not feel under-gunned with a 74 type rifle.

I have no ball ammo or fmj in 5.56/2.23. I bought top defensive rounds. Now I'm gonna be buying practice ammo xm193 primarily. I didn't know Hornady Tap 2 tumbled. It explosively fragments after 2 inches. For home defense I have 200 of those loaded in mags. About 200 rounds of Federal 5.56 Trophy Bonded Bear Claw also in mags. I keep the AK74 at a friends house. With me I wanted a gun that didn't require a ton of maintenance and the Saiga 74 fit that bill. I have yet to fire my Colt LE6920 that I bought a year ago I'm gonna keep it maintained pretty good after it gets shot thats for sure.