An adventure into reducing muzzle climb and felt recoil

[Eurodriver]

Not a troll post this time, FYI.

First, some "facts":

1) The AR15 is designed to function within a particular set of specifications. Combined, they result in a very reliable firearm. Mess up these specifications, and reliability may suffer.

2) The felt recoil/muzzle climb on the AR15 is nothing compared to say, a .30-06 M1 Garand, but it is quite a bit more than a .22LR AR15 clone.

3) Eurodriver likes things simple, and I don't like muzzle climb or felt recoil.

Now, I have jumped on the Battlecomp/FSC556/BCM Comp train and always went back to flash hiders. I shoot under NV almost exclusively these days (Because it's ****ing awesome) and those comps are both ridiculously loud (even country folks don't like semi automatic gunfire at 3am) and light up your NV at night. Even a suppressor has enough flash that can almost be distracting out of an SBR, so no one come in here with that "But mah xxxx comp ain't go no flash!" bullshit, please.

The trade off of course is that the rifle has more muzzle climb and felt recoil. I've experimented with a few ways to reduce the felt recoil and muzzle climb for faster splits and oddly (or duh!) enough the gas system seems to be where the easiest bang for the buck is. I don't like to **** around with silent capture springs, buffers, springs, and all of that ridiculousness. But who knows? That's the purpose of this thread - I know a lot of guys spend a lot of time and money researching this stuff, and I just stumbled across it by accident. I had an SBR lower with an A5H0 (I think?) buffer from 2011 or so (It doesn't even say A5 on the buffer it says "VLTOR Patent Pending") and in the course of building an SBR that was mostly run suppressed with NV I put a Gemtech Suppressed BCG in it. On the unsuppressed setting I found an incredible reduction in felt recoil and muzzle climb. It was absolutely noticeable to everyone who got behind the gun. The upper is a SOLGW 11.5" and per their own they make their gas port sizes to spec as well.

Now before folks chime in with "But small gas port barrel"...been there, done that. Got the post for it.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...Update-Page-4*

It was certainly less "thumpy" (thanks RetreatHell) than a traditionally gas ported SBR while suppressed, but it was not as smooth as the Gemtech BCG is when suppressed and it had reliability issues while unsuppressed. Eventually I got it to work with an LMT Enhanced BCG and a light buffer, but at that point I was like "The complexity here isn't what I was going for". On the other hand, I know Sionics has done a lot of T&E for this sort of thing. I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts on that. Let's stick to unsuppressed muzzle climb and felt recoil for the purposes of this thread, though.

So my question is - what have you found that increases your split times the most (objective measurements are cool) but is simple and isn't some ridiculous space-gun contraption that could potentially reduce reliability? Besides, of course, practice...which nobody really does.

[RVTMaverick]

Erase because I'm realized after posting, most here don't like Adj. Gas Blocks...? Duh

[nightchief]

I have three different 11.5" barrels:
1) BCM ELW barrel (.076 I think gas port)
2) Sionics RGP barrel (.070/.071 gas port) medium profile
3) SOLGW barrel (.072 gas port) govt profile

The Sionics currently has a Hodge/Mega hand guard which is on the heavier side, which in combo with a Magpul SL stock and A5H3 buffer system and LMT carrier has it running pretty well unsuppressed with regards to felt recoil and muzzle movement. I've been using this setup as well as the BCM with KMR-A hand guard and Carbine H3 buffer system and LMT carrier to run that damn MNQ drill. I find the weight and balance of of the Sionics is better for keeping the muzzle flip down when doing the standing and kneeling portion of the drill. I originally had the BCM stocks on these set ups and by going to a heavier stock, it made the balance better, which has made the muzzle management better for me.

The SOLGW gets used in lieu of the Sionics and I can tell the difference in felt recoil, but only slightly. Its much more noticeable with the BCM.

Maybe this is all just stating and obvious point of view, but this where I am currently at trying to get the smoothest operating SBR for myself. Of course, with he suppressor, the felt recoil is much lighter, but its nose heavy, so managing the muzzle movement is more of an issue.

NC's $.02

[Sry0fcr]

TANSTAAFL. Whip out the ridiculous space gun contraptions and start tuning/testing.

[SomeOtherGuy]

I can't tell if your query is focused on SBRs or any length barrel.

I have found that 18-20" barrels with rifle length gas, properly ported, and a rifle or A5 recoil system have trivial recoil and muzzle rise, regardless of muzzle device. This isn't exactly new relative to the platform, but it sometimes seems to have been forgotten. I have a rifle setup like this with a Faxon "Gunner" 20" barrel and A5 recoil system, and the recoil and jump is near .22 rimfire levels.

On 16" midlength setups I've found two things: (1) an A5 recoil setup makes it shoot flat based on video of watching myself shoot, but it still feels like significant recoil when shooting; and (2) gas port size makes a HUGE difference. Ironically, my worst over-ported 16" midlength barrel is a Faxon "Gunner". Not sure how they did so well on the 20" and so badly on the 16".

Other than that, whatever you're doing in the video seems to be working quite well.

[P2000]

Recoil and the effects of recoil are something I try to get rid of. By training and by equipment. I'm not in the SBR AR game, but this is an interesting topic.
The worst recoiling AR-15 I've ever shot was my first AR-15 ever, a circa 2006 RRA midlength 16'', with a carbine stock, spring, and carbine buffer. It was a jackhammer. The gas port must have been 1/4'' or 1/3 of a pinky finger, or whatever RRA had laying around. An H3 buffer was a miracle for that rifle, it actually shot OK with it.
Fast forward and got an SR-15, then put a battlecomp on it. It shoots great (still does), but the battlecomp is annoying. Sights move only a manageable amount and it has been a great rifle, accurate and 100% reliable.
Then came my BCM 14.5 midlength with surefire socom flash hider. Carbine spring, H2, Adj gas block. Without a suppressor, it doesn't recoil much, shoots smooth, but the sights move around a lot under recoil, much much more than the SR-15. Enough to slow me down and be annoying. Add the Surefire socom and it becomes the most dead AR-15 I've ever shot. Sights barely vibrate. Quadruple tap headshots? Sure. WTF awesome.
Then built a 16'' Optimum barrel (intermediate gas 16''), with Vltor A5 and a precision armamant AFAB. Here I try and find a muzzle device to do something that the battlecomp tries to do (less recoil without excessive blast). So far it seems to have less blast than the battlecomp, but it is hard to say without a side by side. It shoots super soft. I need to shoot it side by side with my BCM/supressor combo to see which one has less sight movement.
One thing I have observed, is that sight movement and felt recoil often go hand in hand but not always. There seems to be a stability factor at play. Some set ups seem to jump around under recoil, some are more dead. I think part of this is how front heavy the rifle is. Weight out front hurts balance, but it aids stability which is good and bad. Another factor is not being overgassed. Another factor is the muzzle device. Another factor is some weird voodoo that makes me scratch my head.

[MegademiC]

Only 3 data points i can offer:

Stag 16” m4 style upper with .075” gas port by calipers (i know). = first AR.

New upper, urx3 with centurion 14.5 (no clue on port size)and socom 3 prong flash hider, same lower, noticeably softer, but still thumpy. I actually went to an st2 back in the day and went back to a carbine buffer as the faster recoil got me on target quicker, like a pistol. The dot went up and back to the target. The heavy buffer would push the dot low.

So, recently, for fun, i cut my stag to 11.5 and build a pistol lower with an H buffer and the longest carbine spring (Cr-Si) i could find (near top of spec). The thing has the lightest recoil of any ar ive shot, i probably just got lucky, but...


Tldr: combo needed- gas port, spring, and buffer. Everyone has a preference. I like a lighter buffer and heavier spring. I think this leads to less thumpy results - in general.

[Coal Dragger]

Sorry Euro, but if you want a gun that is stays flat, and runs soft then you’re stuck with comps/brakes and tuning gas systems.

Your best bet for meeting your goal of not running a blasty muzzle device is to tune the gas system to the maximum extent allowable while maintaining reliability.

This will require you to select a power/pressure floor for your ammunition. Ideally you’ll want very careful control of the top end of power/pressure too. So basically you need to select a load. Then get either an adjustable gas block, or some tuned gas port inserts for your gas block modified to take them. You can then experiment until you find a combination that will cycle reliably on the bare minimum of gas flow into the system.

I’ve done this with my fun AR using a Syrac adjustable gas block. Running a carbine buffer for lowest reciprocating mass without resorting to light weight carriers and such. Works pretty well by itself to soften the recoil impulse even with an A2 on the end. Even more effective with the idiotic muzzle brake currently on the gun, but that’s not what you’re after.

I’ve had satisfactory results with the Surefire Warcomp and Precision Armament AFAB for controlling muzzle rise, without visible flash or excessive concussion but have no idea how they’d play with night vision devices.

Then there is the option of going to a rifle length gas system. I have one of those and it is indeed a soft shooter.

[shiv]

CD, the Warcomp isn’t bad at all under nods and is probably the best flash-controlling comp I’ve used but it’s still much more flash than a standard Surefire.


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[Diamondback]

I’ve had satisfactory results with the Surefire Warcomp and Precision Armament AFAB for controlling muzzle rise, without visible flash or excessive concussion but have no idea how they’d play with night vision devices.

Then there is the option of going to a rifle length gas system. I have one of those and it is indeed a soft shooter.

For mitigating flash, maybe try an Indian Creek BFD or similar collar/shield around the AFAB? Bare AFAB's already in the ballpark of an A2 in one muzzle-device shootout... this is the combo I'm going to be trying on my 10.3 pistol once I get the bayo lug chopped to make clearance for it.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...vice-shootout/