SPR-ish optic help

[dontshakepandas]

I'm putting together a new SPR-ish build and need some help picking an optic. I'm new to longer range shooting so I'm not too sure if I'm starting in the right direction. The only scope I've really used in my adult life is my Trijicon Accupoint 1-6x with the green triangle reticle. I love it, but I bought it to use as a magnified red dot replacement and it's useful range only goes out to about 300 yards.

The rifle will have an 18 inch fluted .223 Wylde barrel and 15" Geissele rail. I'd like to keep the weight in check, but it's unlikely I'll be carrying the rifle long distances.

My intended use for the rifle will mostly be shooting groups on paper. Most ranges around me only go out to 100 yards so most of my shooting will be at at that distance, but I'd like to be able to use it to reach out to 500-600 yards also. Even though it is unlikely any of my rifles will ever see any fighting, I do prefer that they be fit for combat should the need arise.

I think I want a first focal plane scope. I like the idea of being able to use holdovers at any magnification range. I feel like this could be more useful for ranging also, but if I'm missing any reasons why a second focal plane would be better let me know.

I'm not really sure what magnification range I should be looking at. It seems like most people go with a 2-10x range for an SPR, but I'm not sure if maybe I need a bit more than that for shooting groups.

I'd like to keep the budget around $1,000 - $1,250, but I could stretch that to closer to $2,000 if absolutely necessary.

Some options I've been looking at already are:

1. Vortex Viper PST Gen II 2-10X32 with EBR-4 MRAD reticle. I haven't been about to find much about this scope, but the PST Gen II range seems to get good reviews overall. Main downside to this one seems to be weight at 26.3 ounces. Price is around $925.

2. Vortex Viper PST Gen II 3-15X44 with EBR-2C MRAD reticle. This seems like it may be a better option since it increases my magnification which should help for shooting groups, but only adds a weight penalty of 1.8 ounces over the 2-10. Price is around $1,000.

3. Nightforce NXS 2.5-10×42 with the Mil-R reticle. This one is SFP, but seems to pretty much be the standard to beat in the SPR game. The weight is great at 21 ounces. This one almost doubles my preferred budget and comes in around $2,000.

Is the Nightforce $1,000 better than the Vortex options? I'd assume they are all pretty tough, and that the Nightforce glass is probably a little better, but how much would I really be giving up?

I'm open to other options too, so feel free to tell me how much I don't know.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[SomeOtherGuy]

My intended use for the rifle will mostly be shooting groups on paper. Most ranges around me only go out to 100 yards so most of my shooting will be at at that distance, but I'd like to be able to use it to reach out to 500-600 yards also. Even though it is unlikely any of my rifles will ever see any fighting, I do prefer that they be fit for combat should the need arise.

I think I want a first focal plane scope. I like the idea of being able to use holdovers at any magnification range. I feel like this could be more useful for ranging also, but if I'm missing any reasons why a second focal plane would be better let me know.

I'm not really sure what magnification range I should be looking at. It seems like most people go with a 2-10x range for an SPR, but I'm not sure if maybe I need a bit more than that for shooting groups.

I'd like to keep the budget around $1,000 - $1,250, but I could stretch that to closer to $2,000 if absolutely necessary.

Some options I've been looking at already are:

1. Vortex Viper PST Gen II 2-10X32 with EBR-4 MRAD reticle. I haven't been about to find much about this scope, but the PST Gen II range seems to get good reviews overall. Main downside to this one seems to be weight at 26.3 ounces. Price is around $925.

2. Vortex Viper PST Gen II 3-15X44 with EBR-2C MRAD reticle. This seems like it may be a better option since it increases my magnification which should help for shooting groups, but only adds a weight penalty of 1.8 ounces over the 2-10. Price is around $1,000.

3. Nightforce NXS 2.5-10×42 with the Mil-R reticle. This one is SFP, but seems to pretty much be the standard to beat in the SPR game. The weight is great at 21 ounces. This one almost doubles my preferred budget and comes in around $2,000.

Is the Nightforce $1,000 better than the Vortex options? I'd assume they are all pretty tough, and that the Nightforce glass is probably a little better, but how much would I really be giving up?

I'm open to other options too, so feel free to tell me how much I don't know.

FFP is reasonable and your magnification range is reasonable. However, if you are ONLY shooting groups on paper, toss that and get a higher magnification target scope. Sightron SIII 6-24x50 LRMDCM is an ideal scope for purely paper punching. It is a one trick pony, but that one trick is very good.

OK... for more general uses, a quality scope that maxes at 10-15x will be more than adequate. I shot my personal best 600 yard F-class match with a 3-12x scope, despite more often using the 6-24x mentioned. Nothing wrong with those you selected, but I would also consider the Burris XTRII 3-15x and Steiner T5xi 3-15x. But I would keep going and instead actually buy the Bushnell LRHS (Elite Tactical) 3-12x44 FFP, which is reasonably sized, has awesome glass, and can usually be found for $1100 or less. This compares better in quality and ruggedness to the Nightforce than any of the others I've listed, but it's also FFP and has slightly more magnification. There are no significant drawbacks to it, besides slightly more weight. (Do not confuse it with the older LRS scope of same zoom range, which is a decent scope but not really in the same quality class.)

If you didn't care about weight, the Bushnell DMR and ERS 3.5-21x50 are excellent, but rather large and heavy. If you like toting lead bricks for fun, also look at the Vortex Razor gen2 3-18x50, which gets great reviews other than weighing 3 pounds.

I had a NF 2.5-10x42 very briefly and I wasn't too impressed. I hated the Digillum, even more than I hate other brands one-button controllers like Leupold. Glass quality didn't blow me away either. If you want a Nightforce I would look for the older 2.5-10x32, or a used/NOS NXS 3.5-15x50, better yet the NXS F1. Those will be closer to $2k though.

Oh wait, almost forgot the Nightforce SHV 4-14x50 F1 with the Mil-R reticle. That scope is intended just for people like you, wanting quality but not actually getting shot at. It's a very strong contender, and appears to be closely related to the discontinued NXS F1 mentioned above. The only real drawback is relatively short eye relief, around 3", but that is tolerable for a setup like yours. These run around $1250 and that would be my other top recommendation, along with the LRHS. Personally I would still choose the LRHS, but wouldn't fault you for getting the SHV F1.

As for the value equation of Nightforce, you pay a huge premium for a scope that is among the most rugged available. If the consequence of scope failure is you dying, or you losing the benefit of a very expensive hunting trip, it's probably worth it. If the consequence of scope failure is you have some bad groups on paper, go home and mail the scope in for service, not worth it so much. Also, while there is no question that NF makes good quality, the number of quality complaints for the high end Bushnell "Elite Tactical" scopes is extremely small to almost nil. Just a few years ago the DMR I listed dominated international precision rifle competition, despite costing less than any other serious entry. I've had a DMR and a LRHS for several years and they have been flawless in tracking and function. Look up older threads on the LRHS (c. 2013-2014). It was designed with major input from GA Precision and intended to go head to head with the most expensive European hunting scopes like Swarovski, and it turned out very well.

If you end up wanting the Bushnell, best prices I've seen have been at Liberty Optics, Optics Planet, and of all places, Amazon. If you want a Nightforce, they have very strict "minimum advertised pricing" much like Vortex, but you might want to call Sport Optics, Euro Optic, or any of the site sponsors that sell that brand. You should not pay more than $1700 for the NXS 2.5-10x42 at most, and $1250 or less for the SHV F1.

[dontshakepandas]

FFP is reasonable and your magnification range is reasonable. However, if you are ONLY shooting groups on paper, toss that and get a higher magnification target scope. Sightron SIII 6-24x50 LRMDCM is an ideal scope for purely paper punching. It is a one trick pony, but that one trick is very good.

OK... for more general uses, a quality scope that maxes at 10-15x will be more than adequate. I shot my personal best 600 yard F-class match with a 3-12x scope, despite more often using the 6-24x mentioned. Nothing wrong with those you selected, but I would also consider the Burris XTRII 3-15x and Steiner T5xi 3-15x. But I would keep going and instead actually buy the Bushnell LRHS (Elite Tactical) 3-12x44 FFP, which is reasonably sized, has awesome glass, and can usually be found for $1100 or less. This compares better in quality and ruggedness to the Nightforce than any of the others I've listed, but it's also FFP and has slightly more magnification. There are no significant drawbacks to it, besides slightly more weight. (Do not confuse it with the older LRS scope of same zoom range, which is a decent scope but not really in the same quality class.)

If you didn't care about weight, the Bushnell DMR and ERS 3.5-21x50 are excellent, but rather large and heavy. If you like toting lead bricks for fun, also look at the Vortex Razor gen2 3-18x50, which gets great reviews other than weighing 3 pounds.

I had a NF 2.5-10x42 very briefly and I wasn't too impressed. I hated the Digillum, even more than I hate other brands one-button controllers like Leupold. Glass quality didn't blow me away either. If you want a Nightforce I would look for the older 2.5-10x32, or a used/NOS NXS 3.5-15x50, better yet the NXS F1. Those will be closer to $2k though.

Oh wait, almost forgot the Nightforce SHV 4-14x50 F1 with the Mil-R reticle. That scope is intended just for people like you, wanting quality but not actually getting shot at. It's a very strong contender, and appears to be closely related to the discontinued NXS F1 mentioned above. The only real drawback is relatively short eye relief, around 3", but that is tolerable for a setup like yours. These run around $1250 and that would be my other top recommendation, along with the LRHS. Personally I would still choose the LRHS, but wouldn't fault you for getting the SHV F1.

As for the value equation of Nightforce, you pay a huge premium for a scope that is among the most rugged available. If the consequence of scope failure is you dying, or you losing the benefit of a very expensive hunting trip, it's probably worth it. If the consequence of scope failure is you have some bad groups on paper, go home and mail the scope in for service, not worth it so much. Also, while there is no question that NF makes good quality, the number of quality complaints for the high end Bushnell "Elite Tactical" scopes is extremely small to almost nil. Just a few years ago the DMR I listed dominated international precision rifle competition, despite costing less than any other serious entry. I've had a DMR and a LRHS for several years and they have been flawless in tracking and function. Look up older threads on the LRHS (c. 2013-2014). It was designed with major input from GA Precision and intended to go head to head with the most expensive European hunting scopes like Swarovski, and it turned out very well.

If you end up wanting the Bushnell, best prices I've seen have been at Liberty Optics, Optics Planet, and of all places, Amazon. If you want a Nightforce, they have very strict "minimum advertised pricing" much like Vortex, but you might want to call Sport Optics, Euro Optic, or any of the site sponsors that sell that brand. You should not pay more than $1700 for the NXS 2.5-10x42 at most, and $1250 or less for the SHV F1.

Thanks for the comments.

I did look into the LRHS, but I'd really prefer an illuminated reticle. I should have mentioned that in my original post.

The Nightforce SHV looks like a good option. I'm going to look into that further. At first glance it seems to offer slightly less features than the PAST Gen ii 3-15x at a slightly higher weight and price though.

I think if I were to further define my intended use, I'd say I'm leaning more towards a longer range fighting optic that still has the ability to shoot groups at 100 yards. The only push for the groups at 100 yards is just because that is something convenient way for me to shoot. I'd probably prefer to hit steel at further distances if I can find a place to do it.

I don't mind a few extra ounces for extra magnification as long as that's all I'm giving up. I definitely don't want it to be like dragging an anchor around.

I'd eliminate the Razor based on the combination of being overweight and over budget.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[dmd08]

I'll second the SHV 4-14 F1. I use one on a SPRish rifle and it's been great. I was just at the range with it this morning. I've found it to be very repeatable. There's really nothing I don't like about it. I don't have time behind really expensive glass though other than an NXS 5.5-22 and I haven't handled a PST Gen II to compare.

[skatz11]

I’m a big fan of the Bushnell LRHS 3-12. You can get the newer LRTSi which includes illumination and the G3 reticle.

The Vortex PST gen2 is a nice scope too. My father put the 3-15 on one his rifles. It’s a big step up from the first gen PST.

The only thing I don’t like about the NF SHV is the 5mil/rev turrets.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Vegas]

I won't tell you what scope to get because you made some good choices but I like the magnification of the 4-16 FFP I have on my rifle. Plenty of reach at 16x or dial it back a couple of power to get a sharper image.

[dontshakepandas]

I’m a big fan of the Bushnell LRHS 3-12. You can get the newer LRTSi which includes illumination and the G3 reticle.

The Vortex PST gen2 is a nice scope too. My father put the 3-15 on one his rifles. It’s a big step up from the first gen PST.

The only thing I don’t like about the NF SHV is the 5mil/rev turrets.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The LRTSi looks very interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[nightchief]

I'll second the SHV 4-14 F1. I use one on a SPRish rifle and it's been great. I was just at the range with it this morning. I've found it to be very repeatable. There's really nothing I don't like about it. I don't have time behind really expensive glass though other than an NXS 5.5-22 and I haven't handled a PST Gen II to compare.

I would also give the 4x14x50 F1 SHV a look. Ut's a nice balance of glass and function for the price. I've been running mine for about 18 months (based on a suggestion from Eurodriver) and have also found it consistent and repeatable. I am hitting an 8" gong at 500 yards with boring regularity using this scope.

Also look up Eurodriver's post on shooting in a hurricane...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-it-really-far

and another post shooting at 600 yards using this optic...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-but-for-real)

[dontshakepandas]

I would also give the 4x14x50 F1 SHV a look. Ut's a nice balance of glass and function for the price. I've been running mine for about 18 months (based on a suggestion from Eurodriver) and have also found it consistent and repeatable. I am hitting an 8" gong at 500 yards with boring regularity using this scope.

Also look up Eurodriver's post on shooting in a hurricane...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-it-really-far

and another post shooting at 600 yards using this optic...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-but-for-real)

Thanks! This one is making its way to the top of my list.

This might be a dumb question, but is it not weird that the windage turret is capped but elevation isn't? I haven't done much shooting past 100 yards, but I was thinking being able to dial in windage would be helpful at longer distances since .223 is pretty susceptible to wind.

[SomeOtherGuy]

This might be a dumb question, but is it not weird that the windage turret is capped but elevation isn't? I haven't done much shooting past 100 yards, but I was thinking being able to dial in windage would be helpful at longer distances since .223 is pretty susceptible to wind.

Most people don't dial for wind, because the wind varies (generally) so you end up holding some of your windage anyway, and then you get confused about how much windage to hold vs. what you already dialed, and you have to remember to reset the windage turret to its zero after shooting. I think dialing windage is mostly for benchrest, and extreme long range where you would dial + hold but the required correction would make holding alone impractical. So, IMHO, having an exposed elevation and capped windage turret is not that weird and makes sense for typical usage. The LRHS is set up the same way.

If illumination is important, be sure to look through a NF SHV with illumination on before buying. Despite the name and reputation, NF doesn't offer very good illumination in the SHV and NXS series scopes. One of the reasons I sold my SHV and two prior NXS's is the uneven, mediocre illumination, plus the on/off only nature on the full size NXS models. I've read that newer high-end NF is better on this, but the SHV and NXS are not.

Solely for quality of illumination, the Burris XTRII and Steiner scopes are much better. The gen1 Vortex PST was also surprisingly good for illumination quality. I haven't seen a PST gen2 but I would hope they did at least as well.