Unit 731

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I studied the unit for a short time out of pure curiosity and terror. Vivisection seems like such a mortifying experience.

[ABNAK]

Read "The Last 100 Days". We, the United States, was complicit in dooming Eastern Europe to 4+ decades of brutal communist rule.

After 41 months of U.S. involvement in a war whose cost was second only to the Civil War (and not over yet as far as Japan was concerned) it doesn't surprise me that things were "settled" for. Not saying I agree with it, but just putting it into historical perspective.

[SteyrAUG]

After 41 months of U.S. involvement in a war whose cost was second only to the Civil War (and not over yet as far as Japan was concerned) it doesn't surprise me that things were "settled" for. Not saying I agree with it, but just putting it into historical perspective.

But at the same time, FDR gave away the store at Yalta in exchange for "nothing." It was a lot like when the US government sacrificed a lot of POWs simply to bring an end to the Vietnam war. Bottom line is if you are going to start a war because of "strong convictions" you better still have some of those convictions when it's time to conclude the war. But that usually isn't how it happens. Often the way we end wars is more offensive than the actions that begin them.

About the ONLY thing we really did right was keep Stalin out of Japan by demonstrating a willingness to enforce our will with atomic weapons, and in the end that mostly benefited Japan who was one of the primary belligerents who started the damn war in the first place.

[MountainRaven]

Read "The Last 100 Days". We, the United States, was complicit in dooming Eastern Europe to 4+ decades of brutal communist rule.

But at the same time, FDR gave away the store at Yalta in exchange for "nothing." It was a lot like when the US government sacrificed a lot of POWs simply to bring an end to the Vietnam war. Bottom line is if you are going to start a war because of "strong convictions" you better still have some of those convictions when it's time to conclude the war. But that usually isn't how it happens. Often the way we end wars is more offensive than the actions that begin them.

About the ONLY thing we really did right was keep Stalin out of Japan by demonstrating a willingness to enforce our will with atomic weapons, and in the end that mostly benefited Japan who was one of the primary belligerents who started the damn war in the first place.

The Percentages agreement of 1944 pre-dated the Yalta agreement (in 1945), was brought to Stalin by Churchill, and FDR was kept in the dark - because Churchill believed that Roosevelt would oppose it. After Stalin and Churchill had made the agreement, FDR reluctantly consented. At Yalta, FDR wanted the Percentages agreement publicly ratified by the UN (the Allies), which both Stalin and Churchill opposed. Confusion over the public Yalta agreement and the secret Percentages agreement (and whether the percentages in the Percentages agreement were precise or vague) led Stalin to believe that Churchill was reneging on these agreements and that the Western Allies were betraying him, which likely played a hand in Stalin's efforts to secure the Soviet Union's sphere of influence in Eastern Europe. Neither Attlee (who succeeded Churchill as PM in 1945) nor Truman had any idea that the Percentages agreement existed and it was not made public until Churchill published the final volume of his WWII memoirs in 1953.

[flenna]

But at the same time, FDR gave away the store at Yalta in exchange for "nothing." It was a lot like when the US government sacrificed a lot of POWs simply to bring an end to the Vietnam war. Bottom line is if you are going to start a war because of "strong convictions" you better still have some of those convictions when it's time to conclude the war. But that usually isn't how it happens. Often the way we end wars is more offensive than the actions that begin them.

About the ONLY thing we really did right was keep Stalin out of Japan by demonstrating a willingness to enforce our will with atomic weapons, and in the end that mostly benefited Japan who was one of the primary belligerents who started the damn war in the first place.

Spot on. We were ready to end the war in Europe and preempt the start of the next war (with Russia) so basically gave it all away. Patton was right, he saw what was coming.

[chuckman]

The Percentages agreement of 1944 pre-dated the Yalta agreement (in 1945), was brought to Stalin by Churchill, and FDR was kept in the dark - because Churchill believed that Roosevelt would oppose it. After Stalin and Churchill had made the agreement, FDR reluctantly consented. At Yalta, FDR wanted the Percentages agreement publicly ratified by the UN (the Allies), which both Stalin and Churchill opposed. Confusion over the public Yalta agreement and the secret Percentages agreement (and whether the percentages in the Percentages agreement were precise or vague) led Stalin to believe that Churchill was reneging on these agreements and that the Western Allies were betraying him, which likely played a hand in Stalin's efforts to secure the Soviet Union's sphere of influence in Eastern Europe. Neither Attlee (who succeeded Churchill as PM in 1945) nor Truman had any idea that the Percentages agreement existed and it was not made public until Churchill published the final volume of his WWII memoirs in 1953.

Churchill was an excellent politician, horrible PM. The fact so many people idolize him is amazing. He played everyone--FDR, Stalin, the rest of the allies--like a cheap violin.

The other issue re: FDR and Yalta, is FDR was suffering pretty bad from illness, likely cognitive issues caused by metsed cancer. He could have easily given away the store regardless of what he knew/didn't know.

[chuckman]

Patton was right, he saw what was coming.

So did Ike, Marshall, Nimitz...

[WillBrink]

Well we didn't give Mengele and his people jobs, so I think you're right. Rocket scientists, physicists, etc are an entirely different matter.

That's my understanding and a entirely different matter in my view

Yes. The Germans who did this, we hanged. The Japanese who did this, we hired.

Perhaps in part due to the German part somewhat known to the world, and 731 essentially unknown. Also, some of what 731 did possibly useful in our development of bio and chem weapons, the Germans really didn't experiment per se, they most just did bizarre stuff to people. Once they discovered that the Japanese had done some that to POWs, they should have been marched to the firing line and done with a flame thrower. The end.

More importantly, there is some kind of moratorium against using data from nazi experiments that were derived from live human testing, there seems to be no equivalent ban on data derived from Japanese experiments on humans.

I'd heard that. Docs and scientists who have looked the "data" have concluded it was actually of very little value from a medical POV, as they used sloppy methodology, no controls, etc. I think some want there to be some useful medical info in there if for no other reason to feel like at least something of benefit came from all that horror. I can understand that POV, but far as I know, not the case. From a war/weapon POV, might be another matter.

Spot on. We were ready to end the war in Europe and preempt the start of the next war (with Russia) so basically gave it all away. Patton was right, he saw what was coming.

Patton was right, but short of continue on with war, which no one had the stomach for any more, what else could we really do? Perhaps the real mistake was assisting the Russians via the Lend-Lease act (which was illegal to even talk about in Russia till not long ago ) and we should have just let them fall. That would have taken up huge resources for the Germans and they would have been ground down that way and no doubt the Russians would have developed a resistance to grind down the Germans further. Then we could have mopped that up and pushed the Russian border back a bit vs allowing them to take over east Germany.

Few have any idea how essential that program was to the ability of the Russians to finally change the tide of that war for them although a few Russian Generals admitted without it, they'd have been screwed six ways to Sunday.

Helping other countries in times of war to defeat a mutual threat is fine by me, doing so for countries that don't even say "thanx for the assist" as the French at least did, is not OK in my book.

[SteyrAUG]

Churchill was an excellent politician, horrible PM. The fact so many people idolize him is amazing. He played everyone--FDR, Stalin, the rest of the allies--like a cheap violin.

The other issue re: FDR and Yalta, is FDR was suffering pretty bad from illness, likely cognitive issues caused by metsed cancer. He could have easily given away the store regardless of what he knew/didn't know.

Churchill played Stalin? News to me...and most of Eastern Europe. Stalin realized a simple truism, if you take it you can keep it. That is why he kept Poland and pretty much every where else his army camped. He'd have kept Manchuria if not for the Chinese and his concerns about Truman and his willingness to use "the bomb."

Also Churchill was a much better PM than the guy who came before him and the guy who came after him. Honestly wouldn't be until Thatcher that they got a better PM.

[MountainRaven]

Churchill played Stalin? News to me...and most of Eastern Europe. Stalin realized a simple truism, if you take it you can keep it. That is why he kept Poland and pretty much every where else his army camped. He'd have kept Manchuria if not for the Chinese and his concerns about Truman and his willingness to use "the bomb."

Also Churchill was a much better PM than the guy who came before him and the guy who came after him. Honestly wouldn't be until Thatcher that they got a better PM.

How would it matter to Eastern Europe if Churchill played Stalin? Churchill cared about the British Empire, not Eastern Europe.