Why all the hate for pocket guns?

[4325]

[QUOTE=Firefly;2597273]

Because you have not been as abrasive or calumnious as someone else, let me very tactfully clarify some things to you.

If you go back and read that one post, I explicitly state that common sense and clothing dictate what people should carry. But likewise a .22lr wouldnt put you at a total deficit.

you said it didnt put you at a deficit...common sense says it does

It doesnt matter it the guy is bare chested 22lr is putting you at a deficit

Again, remember, we are discussing pocket guns. By virtue that will preclude most larger and mainstream calibers.

while not over abundant there are true pocket guns that are 9mm

A more unpleasant person disagreed. Sadly, I do not have a lot of well known, raw data on .22lr used in high profile self defense but the VA Tech shooting is still, 11 years later, well known.

You, however, are making assumptions that the victims were "compliant" and were all shot in the head. That is not the case, a lot were actually upper body shots and the victims were caught off guard or fleeing.

28 of the 32 had headshots
I meant non-aggressive when i said compliant, I should have been more specific...it doesnt change how valid the point is though, compliant or fleeing or hiding they were not attacking or fighting back

No "compliance"

.

see above

This is to illustrate that .22lr is still lethal regardless. Unless you are wearing ballistic armor everywhere you go, you should take notice.

never said it couldnt be, it still puts you at a deficit

As I said in another post, you can only control what you carry, not what your assailants can carry.

then why handicap yourself

If a person is very short or of an advanced age to where they live alone or are indepemdent, yet cannot physically handle a larger caliber; are you proposing they be unarmed rather than carry a .22lr/.22 magnum?

You would not appreciate it if I assumed as such or if I put those words in your mouth, so I won't, but I will ask you directly in the hope that you will answer:

If an 83 year old person is living alone and can only handly a .22 caliber weapon proficiently, would you rather them carry that caliber or have nothing at all?

the 22 of course but if they can only handle a 22 a pocket gun would be a horrible choice...strawman argument thats not we are talking about

If someone is physically weakened or has rheumatoid arthritis it would be irresponsible to give them a larger gun and say "good luck"

of course it would...but again strawman argument thats not what we are talking about

As Kain pointed out, it is an unfortunate comparison but no different from those citing the Ft. Hood shooting or even Oklahoma City Bombing if talking about the use of Ammonium Nitrate and its potency as an explosive.

Unpleasant subject matter but still a matter of fact.

how pleasant the subject matter is has nothing to do with it

Human beings are human beings and bullets are bullets.

ok

Everybody wants to get this mental image of a 6'4" 260 lb mugger wearing a field jacket and a ski mask as the "bad guy" who will accost you.

No. It will typically be two or more young males between 17-26 wearing street clothes and carrying whatever weapon they can get their hands on.

Whether you are carrying a weapon or not, you still have to deal with the fact that you are being engaged by armed males who may have anything from a .22 to a 9mm.

If you get shot with a .22 and arent wearing armor, you may not go home that day.

that is a very good point...you treat the threat the same because you are trying to stack the odds in your favor, i am saying do the same with what you carry

President Reagan got shot with a .22 and was protected by the most well trained PSD of his era. Men who would literally take a bullet for him. He came very close to dying. Fortunately he didn't. James Brady, whether you liked him or not, was permanently crippled from the same gun and calubre and his death, despite the time gap, was ruled homicide because of the long term effects of the .22 contributing to his death.

Again, two men, protected by the best available security in the world, with an advance team were nearly killed that day from a cheap .22

they were non aggressive non threats shot from surprise...

You should look at it from that vantage point. It is what it is. A bullet that is still lethal.

never said it wasnt

Discounting it is the same as discounting a 5.56 as a "poodle shooter"

.

not even remotely the same

That's all I'm saying. That should clear it up. Before you want to get stuck on the "unarmed, execution" spiel. Reread my post at least 5 times.

if you dont see the difference between what is needed to execute a non aggressive non violent person and a aggressive violent threat then i cannot help you

And again I ask, "Would you rather an infirmed, elderly person carry a .22 if that was all they were able or carry nothing at all?"

answered already and its still a strawman

And again the topic is Pocket Guns. Not "The Best CCW Caliber Ever" or "Feelings amd Emotions".

then why are you bringing up strawman arguments about crimminals shooting at you?

Me, personally, having been shot at before; I didnt care to make a distinction. I just wanted to get to closest cover.

i never made a distinction either...but why are you bringing this up? the topic is Pocket Guns not "what i did when i was shot at"...another strawman

And, in parting, when someone says it is harder to penetrate a skull than a thorax; that person is actually saying headshots are NOT what you should be attempting.

Center of Mass unless you have to do a Failure to Stop drill meaning it is a tactic of last resort.

then you shouldnt have used a example where 28 of the 32 dead had headshots
If you're still unsatisfied then, I cannot help you.

Also this isn't AOL IM chat. One question mark is more than enough if you have a question not stuck on the same emotional trappings.

you may not be abrasive but you have the cutesy passive aggressive angle down


the purpose of a SD gun is to stop the threat that is attacking you (or another) RFN or as close to it as possible so if a round is lethal or not isnt really the question its how fast and effectively its either lethal or incapacitating...22lr falls on its face here

a quality archery setup is a perfectly capable weapon to hunt bear with but is a horrible weapon for bear DEFENSE

[Averageman]

Yeah, on a lot of levels seeing her lose the strength and dexterity she once had is sad, but she refuses to be an unarmed victim.
That makes me smile, slot.

[Inkslinger]

Good article by Greg Ellifritz.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power

“Here are the results:

.25ACP
# of people shot - 68
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2
% of people who were not incapacitated - 35%
One-shot-stop % - 30%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49%

.22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

.32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)
# of people shot - 25
# of hits - 38
% of hits that were fatal - 21%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.52
% of people who were not incapacitated - 40%
One-shot-stop % - 40%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 78%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 72%

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

.38 Special
# of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%

9mm Luger
# of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%

.357 (both magnum and Sig)
# of people shot - 105
# of hits - 179
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61%

.40 S&W
# of people shot - 188
# of hits - 443
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.36
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 45%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 52%

.45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

.44 Magnum
# of people shot - 24
# of hits - 41
% of hits that were fatal - 26%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.71
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 59%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 88%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 53%

Rifle (all Centerfire)
# of people shot - 126
# of hits - 176
% of hits that were fatal - 68%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.4
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 80%

Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge)
# of people shot - 146
# of hits - 178
% of hits that were fatal - 65%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.22
% of people who were not incapacitated - 12%
One-shot-stop % - 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 84%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 86%

[yoni]

My dad who was a WW2 infantry guy and saw a lot of combat for years used a 12 ga for home defense. When that became too much for him, we looked at it and he transitioned to a semi auto Uzi. He now has had to transition to a Ruger 10-22.

Is he not armed?

He if forced to will shoot the guy breaking into his house as many times as he can until the dude drops or runs.

Would he have fought WW2 with a Ruger 10-22 over his Garand of course not.

I carried at times in Israel a mini or micro Uzi, rather than a Colt commando. Was I undergunned, maybe. Was I unarmed, nope. Do I think any form of 9mm subgun is better than an assault rifle, maybe, because it would fit in my backpack but be ready for action in the blink of an eye. Did it have the power of the rifle, nope. But was it easier to shoot faster and more accurately than a 9mm pistol, yes.

[LDB]

I admit to not reading everything. I did skim and have comments. I wear Tru-Spec original cargo pants. The cargo pockets have inner pockets. The inner pocket is just the right size to hold the muzzle and trigger guard of whatever pistol I choose to carry. It keeps it upright and keeps it from leaning out to print or turn to be in a bad position to grasp. Works very well.

Given the choice, I'll stick with my 9mm as a good all around option. If for some reason my choice is carry a .22 rimfire or nothing I'll definitely carry the .22 and likely grumble some but be glad to at least have something. I think I'd rather have the .22 than a .25 but thankfully I can just stick with the 9.

[17K]

How you're not banned and this thread isn't locked is beyond me. I also love the rationale of discussing physical confrontations with someone online with whom you have absolutely no idea their physical stature or background. I need to change me signature to something about this place slowly becoming arfcom.

I lurk around on arfcom. This place is a cesspool compared to arf.

[Firefly]

4325,

May I ask you what you think the real physical difference/advantage that an "aggressive assailant fighting back" has with regards to the ballistic capability of the cartridge in question?

Will it make his skin harder? His organs more resilient? His bones more dense?

Adrenalin is one thing but your average hood is not exactly trained to ignore pain or to persevere.

And if he is shooting at you, how does that make your ability to defend easier?

You want to stick on victims who were unaware and all. How much situational awareness do you really have all day, everyday?

Bullets work both ways. I do not wish to be accusatory as you have remained civil, but I am curious how you are perceiving things.

If you are caught off guard then you are caught off guard. It doesn't matter what you have in your holster.

I am tired of reiterating and chasing these curveball rabbits down these tangential rabbitholes.

At no point have I said a .22lr is 'ideal'. Only that it is still lethal, still quite common, and is better than nothing.

Some people carry pocket pistols because that is all they are able. Some carry a .22.

No they aren't at a deficit because a small bore gun is better than no gun or harsh language.

Either you want to be argumentative or you are just overlooking tge fact that it doesn't really matter what you are carrying or what you think.

If several people accost you with handguns of varying calibers from .22 to .380; do you honestly feel like you have the advantage as a lone person with whatever gun and caliber you prefer? Especially if caught off guard.

Most likely you will get injured, possibly killed. Go look at any number of gang shootings. They got the subject alone or isolated and killed him, or if multiple victims; they brought more people.

The only optimistic point is if you can regain initiative, most people will flee or submit once injured.

So no. If you only have a .22lr you are not at a deficit vs. being unarmed. Your main deficit, irrespective of your weapon/caliber, is being alone vs a group. This is universal. Why do you think these people on the street go about in groups.

Why do you think police have radios to call for back up? If it gets bad enough, I can get the boots and the black gear rolling with rifles in the Bearcat.

I am not saying you think this way, but one almost gleans this High Noon mentality where you make it seem like a square fight and caliber decides the outcome.

Is that how you think? Please clarify so I know where you are coming from.

Not everybody gets a real choice in weapon due to age or economic status.
Most people living in bad areas are not going to carry Roland Specials or VP9SKs. They are going to get whatever gun they can afford while still being able to make rent, keep lights on, and have food.

Per Pocket Pistols (the original topic), the only 9mm really worth it is a G43. I feel like if I suggested a KelTec 9mm (which I wouldnt); you would criticise the quality of Kel Tec.

If I were relegated to a pocket pistol, I would sooner take the .22lr that would cycle over the 9mm that was only good for one shot. I am fortunate that I have a G19 and a snub .38, both I have trained with and am competent in using, and am not relegated to a smaller bore weapon. But if I were, universal tactics remain universal.

I still dont see where you are missing the boat that a .22 is better than nothing.

The point really isn't that hard to grasp.

It didn't require attitude, contrarianism, or conflating one talking point with another.

Again, still curious how you think an aggressive attacker changes the paradigm to where caliber matters more than tactics and survival.

Unless you wear a IIIA soft vest everywhere; you are vulnerable too.

All I'm saying is take no bullet for granted or as a given and certainly don't make light of it.

[glocktogo]

I've cc'd just about everything from the Beretta 21A to all steel 5" 1911's and a bunch in between. Even a 4" N Frame and a couple of K frame .357's. I've pocket carried up to a G-26. Even ankle carry with a G-26 or a 442.

The best pocket carry gun I have is the P-32. It just disappears, but mostly it just disappears in my safe. I never carry it anymore. Ever. Pocket carry always irritated my leg, even with the P-32. I find it much more comfy to carry a Shield in a CCC Uno. When I carried creds and felt compelled to "do more" in the event of an emergency, I always carried at least a PPQ or G-19. Now the Shield does enough to keep me satisfied. I just don't feel the need to carry more, or less than the Shield.

I am still looking for a good carry method for my laser equipped 21A with HTA B-22 suppressor though. You know, for those times when decorum would dictate addressing a problem with less environmental disruption.

[26 Inf]

the purpose of a SD gun is to stop the threat that is attacking you (or another) RFN or as close to it as possible so if a round is lethal or not isnt really the question its how fast and effectively its either lethal or incapacitating...22lr falls on its face here

I'm not arguing for or against the .22 just stating some things that I have learned over time, with a fair amount of study:

According to Doctor Martin Fackler, the number one reason folks cease their aggression upon being shot is the psychological response to being shot. Most often the person has not suffered an immeadiately incapacitating physical injury, rather they decide 'oh, I've been shot, I can/have to quit.

Attitude or mindset has quit a bit to do with how you respond. Michael Platt's drive to survival and prevail is well documented in just about every study of the infamous 'FBI Miami Shootout.' Those who have studied the Trooper Mark Coates' murder as well, are probably struck by how quickly Trooper Mark Coates was put out of the fight after being struck by the .22 round fired by Richie Blackburn.

The only truly reliable instant incapacitator in a gunfight is a hit to the CNS, high enough to cease voluntary control of the arms and hands.

Even a shot that stops the heart can allow a determined, oxygenated person up 10 to 15 seconds of further mayhem.

Placement, placement, placement.

In terms of deficit. If being unarmed places you at 'zero' on the scale, and being armed with a .22 places you at 5, that is hardly a deficit. Comparatively speaking, you are more advantaged with a larger caliber that you can hit with, but I don't believe that is what Firefly was speaking about.

This went way far off the rails.

[Warp]

In terms of deficit. If being unarmed places you at 'zero' on the scale, and being armed with a .22 places you at 5, that is hardly a deficit. Comparatively speaking, you are more advantaged with a larger caliber that you can hit with, but I don't believe that is what Firefly was speaking about.

A deficit relative to what? Nobody has stated or implied that a .22lr is no better than being unarmed. If not having a firearm is 0 I'd say THAT is an attitude/psychological problem right there. But suppose it is a 0 because our scale is only referring to effectiveness of one particular tool (firearm). If a small .22lr pocket pistol is a 5, how high does this scale go? 20? 50? How much of a deficit is the pocket .22lr vs say a compact or sub compact double stack 9/40? What would that be, an 8? 10? How low does the scale go? What is a 1, 2, 3? A single shot .22 short?

There is a reason all the talk of being armed with a .22lr is -I had access to nothing else- or -my 80 year old grandma couldn't operate anything better-...reasons justifying and explaining the decision to use a tool that is known to be inferior to other readily available options.