Active shooting: Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida

[26 Inf]

Attachment 50830

but a Radiologist in broward county claims these were high velocity rifle round wounds


"How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?"

Typing slower than the post above - same point - deleted.

[pinzgauer]

Who is HE?
The Radiologist I quoted claiming these were "AR15 wounds" is a SHE = Heather Sher is a radiologist at Broward Health.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/...223-story.html

I am also a bit skeptical of that article as well

Durn gender pronouns... Ze said

Maybe the can't-call-them-snowflakes-but-whatever-they-are crowd is right about abandoning gender specific pronouns

[WillBrink]

It's being reported that he shot at the glass 16 times.

The one picture that we've seen does not look like an impact rated "hurricane" glass window that's been shot at 16 times by 223. You would see significantly more spider web shattering at least 8 to 12 in in diameter at each impact location.

Some of the impact rated hurricane glass will stop 22 long rifle, but 223 just punches right through it, and shatters the whole thing. (But the laminate layer is still intact)

This is not conjecture, this is pretty well-documented impact and bullet-resistant standards. There are a dozen or more YouTube videos by mfgs showing what normal hurricane rated glass looks like when impacted, as well as so-called bulletproof glass.

What I could see happening is despite being shot multiple times, the glass did not fall out or could be pushed out. So in that aspect, Hurricane rated glass probably did form a deterrent no matter what he used.

Rgr rgr. At this point it would be all speculation on my part as it's veering out of my lane, so I'm gonna sit back and await more details before further comment. It does not seem to add up as we expect it should from what we are seeing of hurricane impact glass and .223 and my only theory is, if it's shown he was using 223 that it simply punched through cleanly - due to the velocity and small diameter - without causing the glass to spider. That's my WAG at this time.

[pinzgauer]

Rgr rgr. At this point it would be all speculation on my part as it's veering out of my lane, so I'm gonna sit back and await more details before further comment. It does not seem to add up as we expect it should from what we are seeing of hurricane impact glass and .223 and my only theory is, if it's shown he was using 223 that it simply punched through cleanly - due to the velocity and small diameter - without causing the glass to spider. That's my WAG at this time.

Agreed entirely, just conjecture based on slightly fuzzy pics. Though this is my brother's field, so informed conjecture in his case. He has to go to dozens of hours of training each year on the ever evolving hurricane and safety standards.

But sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke, as some Doc said.

Also, the green wall windows in the pics look more like what would be expected from 223 and armored glass, though it does not makes sense for them to be using it.

A couple of articles have mentioned the specific rating of the glass normally used by schools in the area in the context of hardening the schools

Given how defensive and slanted the sheriff's public responses have been I don't particularly trust their reporting. I hope it is taken over at the state (FDLE?) or federal level.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Attachment 50830

but a Radiologist in broward county claims these were high velocity rifle round wounds

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/...223-story.html

"ICT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?"

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) of 1994 included language which prohibited semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15, and also large-capacity magazines with the ability to hold more than 10 rounds. The ban was allowed to expire after 10 years on September 13, 2004. The mass murders that followed the ban’s lapse make clear that it must be reinstated.

When people like this make statements like that, you know they are full of BS and don't know what they are talking about- unless you are talking about firefights at night or bayoneting.

Also, they never get around to what 'banning' means. Like round them up? She is going to see a lot more ballistic injuries- which actually is a segway to another point- kind of interesting that she sees very few rifle wounds. But handgun injuries she seems to put in the "you'll shoot your eye out" category.

[Averageman]

When people like this make statements like that, you know they are full of BS and don't know what they are talking about- unless you are talking about firefights at night or bayoneting.

Also, they never get around to what 'banning' means. Like round them up? She is going to see a lot more ballistic injuries- which actually is a segway to another point- kind of interesting that she sees very few rifle wounds. But handgun injuries she seems to put in the "you'll shoot your eye out" category.

There is a lot missing from her opinion, like some expertise, but that doesn't stop her from writing and being published does it?
The shooting was a tragedy that was very preventable in hindsight, but it has little to do with guns and everything to do with accountability. The School System, the Sheriffs Department, the FBI, CPS all had a chance to step in and make this right long before the trigger was pulled and yet?...
We're not going to discuss that are we?
I find it simply amazing that a Radiologist is now a Ballistics Expert, simply because of seeing some (self admitted few) gun shot wounds from rifles. The devastating effects may show a difference between rifle an handgun wounds, but I highly doubt at this point She could go in to a courtroom and without a reasonable doubt proceed to tell us what caliber rifle produce which wound. She's simply voicing an opinion that has now more worth than any other novice we could pull off of the street.
The truly amazing thing is this will be taken as fact and I would not be surprised if CNN would use her as an "Expert".

[WillBrink]

There is a lot missing from her opinion, like some expertise, but that doesn't stop her from writing and being published does it?
The shooting was a tragedy that was very preventable in hindsight, but it has little to do with guns and everything to do with accountability. The School System, the Sheriffs Department, the FBI, CPS all had a chance to step in and make this right long before the trigger was pulled and yet?...
We're not going to discuss that are we?
I find it simply amazing that a Radiologist is now a Ballistics Expert, simply because of seeing some (self admitted few) gun shot wounds from rifles. The devastating effects may show a difference between rifle an handgun wounds, but I highly doubt at this point She could go in to a courtroom and without a reasonable doubt proceed to tell us what caliber rifle produce which wound. She's simply voicing an opinion that has now more worth than any other novice we could pull off of the street.
The truly amazing thing is this will be taken as fact and I would not be surprised if CNN would use her as an "Expert".

Cuz that was not a well known effect of rifle rnds compared to handguns...

Her entire article discusses the AR15 as if it fires a unique bullet to the AR15, which only confuses the anti gun plebs even more, assuming that's what was actually used in 223.

Ugh

[joeg26er]

Durn gender pronouns... Ze said

Maybe the can't-call-them-snowflakes-but-whatever-they-are crowd is right about abandoning gender specific pronouns

Maybe we should just use "Xi" as in "Xi said Xi would be president forever"

[Averageman]

And just how far would the average shot be from shooter to victims inside a school?
Think about that for a minute and consider it.

[Crow Hunter]

This is what armored Sentryglass plus looks like when shot by a bullet:


And another unspecified manufacturer:



These are both much higher ratings than normal hurricane glass.

This is what hurricane glass looks like when it's impacted:



In all cases the glass is allowed to fragment, it's the poly laminate layer that keeps the integrity.

The actual standard for Hurricane protection involved shooting a 2 by 4 at known speed and it must not be allowed to penetrate and the frame must stay intact.

This is a big part of my brother's job, so based on discussion and the picture shared so far about the actual window, something does not smell right

Pizgauer is absolutely correct.

It is a specifically weighted 2X4 (8+/- 1/2 lb) fired at 50 FPS, IIRC.

I actually shoot them for a living using a muzzle loading air cannon.

The engineering techs load and fire the cannon most of the time. I just watch and dissect what is left over and come up with other things to break.

IZ (Impact Zone) rated glass has a layer of tempered (busts into small glass fragments) with a PVB (or other) interlayer that actually stops the projectile.

The tempered glass pretty much shatters across the entire area since the matrix holding it together is now gone and it "relaxes" as the stress relieves. It sounds like rice crispies for a while until all the stress relieves.

I have read several accounts that mention "AR-15 Style" firearm rather than a AR-15. It could very well be that it isn't even an AR at all. Just a black rifle that shoots .223 or even a .22 LR. It could just be one of the Mossberg 715T or something similar. Low quality and has a very small (702 Plinkster) magazine. You could fit a bunch of them into a backpack and it would explain why the gun could have had an bad malfunction. Those magazines don't look like they fit really well and would be hard to diagnose/clear. Especially in someone that is very untrained.

It is also relatively inexpensive and I assume a LGS wouldn't look oddly at a kid wanting to buy one.