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Thread: Pistol range week at a large agency's academy

  1. #1
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    Pistol range week at a large agency's academy

    I've got little notes about the range

    I digress. The people who brought their own all had glocks. 19's and 17's. Only one gen 3, the rest were gen 4's and gen 5's.

    Only a few of us had something that wasn't a glock.

    We fired about 800 rounds each throughout the past 2 weeks. Some interesting things of note within our sample size.

    One of my mags just fell apart on a day where we were dropping mags on concrete all day. The base plate must have came loose without me realizing it. When I went to eject the magazine, the base plate, a plastic retainer and the spring fell out but the actual magazine tube and follower stayed in the gun. That was strange. Reassembled it and never had an issue again.

    The guy with the 226 had a similar problem where his magazine ejected and the detent that held the base plate in sheared off. Sig branded mags too. So the baseplate would come off fairly easily.

    The training rounds (Orange tip, silver case) were constantly getting stuck in the gen 5 glocks. The only way they wouldn't get stuck is if the rounds had no dents or dings on them at all.

    Type 3 malfunctions were interesting. An instructor showed us the "fastest" way he's found to clear them. His disclaimer was that it doesn't work with every gun, so you'd have to try and see what happened. Tap rack first obviously, but then you'll see what kind of malf it is. Hold down the magazine release and strip the magazine out with force, without locking the slide to the rear. Without pulling the magazine all the way out, about half way, slam it back in and you should be back in the fight.

    This worked with the VP9 every time. The XD would lose the chambered round but not the first round in the magazine. Some people had to lock the slide to the rear first before stripping the mag, others did not.

    The sig would lose at least 2, sometimes 3 rounds when attempting this. He'd lose the chambered round and the first two in the magazine because of the way the sig seats the first round.

    , I used the ALS nub from OTdefense. I cannot speak highly enough about it. First day was a ton of holster draws from a safariland ALS 6xxx series. My thumb was sick of hitting that stupid slim ALS. Then I put the nub on, world's difference. Highly recommended. I also used a esstac 2" belt with esstac kywi pistol pouches.

    Anyway, I just thought I'd share this tidbit. Someone had 3 failures with their glock today, he said light primer strikes. I didn't see the primers, so I cannot confirm.

    VP9 was excellent.
    Last edited by Bodhi; 03-06-18 at 13:12.

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    Thanks for the report.

    Do you think the Gen 5 Glocks had issues with the dinged up training rounds due to tight chamber tolerances?
    Train 2 Win

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    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    Thanks for the report.

    Do you think the Gen 5 Glocks had issues with the dinged up training rounds due to tight chamber tolerances?
    That's what the determination was.

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    We are just transitioning away from HK P2000's at work. The mags with rubber coated base plates would shift all the time dropping them on the concrete range floor. It is a common thing for us. The VP mag base is a little different but the retainer is the same.

    We run the same dummy rounds. Some tight chambers don't like the nickle cases but those dummy rounds last so much longer than the all plastic orange versions.

    Interesting take on remedial action. Some malfunctions can be cleared in different ways. I think it is easier to just drill in Rip/Rack/Reload. The biggest immediate action issue I see is people tap rack more than once and turn simple malfunction into a jammed up double fed disaster. David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi View Post

    Type 3 malfunctions were interesting. An instructor showed us the "fastest" way he's found to clear them. His disclaimer was that it doesn't work with every gun, so you'd have to try and see what happened. Tap rack first obviously, but then you'll see what kind of malf it is. Hold down the magazine release and strip the magazine out with force, without locking the slide to the rear. Without pulling the magazine all the way out, about half way, slam it back in and you should be back in the fight.
    So you have an instructor at a basic police academy teaching a methodology for failure to extracts that that doesn't work with every gun, a methodology that (your words) should put you back in the fight.

    It may just me, I'm kind of a fud, but we always taught techniques, common to all, that WOULD put you back in the fight absent a broken extractor or case head separation.

    It was like herding cats to get all the staff instructors to agree on the techniques we taught, but ultimately every basic was taught the same methodology.

    An effective program can't have instructors freelancing, teaching their own tactics/techniques to one group, while another instructor teaches different techniques to a different group.

    That, my friends, is a recipe for disaster.

    JMO

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    Good feedback.

    Thank you.

    I am used to a higher range count over a shorter period of time,
    And usually not hard surface mags drops.

    Even then, the plastic baseplates that beretta replaces the metal ones with were prone to not holding up.
    “Where weapons may not be carried, it is well to carry weapons.”

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    Thanks for the writeup.

    Out of curiosity, as a guy who runs a VP9, what specifically made the the VP9 excellent? Aside from an apparent advantage in clearing type 3 malfunctions using the methods the instructor was teaching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    So you have an instructor at a basic police academy teaching a methodology for failure to extracts that that doesn't work with every gun, a methodology that (your words) should put you back in the fight.

    It may just me, I'm kind of a fud, but we always taught techniques, common to all, that WOULD put you back in the fight absent a broken extractor or case head separation.

    It was like herding cats to get all the staff instructors to agree on the techniques we taught, but ultimately every basic was taught the same methodology.

    An effective program can't have instructors freelancing, teaching their own tactics/techniques to one group, while another instructor teaches different techniques to a different group.

    That, my friends, is a recipe for disaster.

    JMO
    I should have clarified. They taught the traditional tap rack, put the slide to the rear, rip the magazine, rack rack rack, insert new magazine. Then they showed us the shorter way and prefaced it by saying that this is not a guarantee and we will have to try for ourselves. Which we did, each of these malf drills are ran both dry and during live fire. Plenty of times.

    And I agree with you, there were plenty of things that all the instructors had to confer with each other to teach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Dragger View Post
    Thanks for the writeup.

    Out of curiosity, as a guy who runs a VP9, what specifically made the the VP9 excellent? Aside from an apparent advantage in clearing type 3 malfunctions using the methods the instructor was teaching?
    I like my vp9 quite a bit because I have sausage fingers. So it's really easy for me to use the paddle release. The type 3 malfunction clearing isn't something I'd even consider to bring up as a reason why I prefer the vp9 to other handguns.
    Last edited by Bodhi; 03-07-18 at 12:11.

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    Didn’t realize you had run your VP9 in this class. Thanks.

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    Thanks for posting.

    How common is dropping mags on concrete during "standard" training?

    Seems to me it will lead to malfunctions during later training or during an actual defense/duty encounter.

    Although if the guns were for training only and would never see duty use that's another matter.

    Anyway, official and non-official live-fire training/courses I've taken always involved a soft surface. (Mudd, grass, clay, sand, or dirt)

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