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Thread: NEW Federal Hydra-Shok Deep

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    The FBI hasn't stopped there. They still want more penetration. That's why they selected Winchester Train and Defend for .40 S&W that penetrates about 15 inches and still are on the prowl for 9mm ammo that penetrates about the same..
    You got a source on this? Yes, Winchester was awarded a contract but nowhere do they tout it as the Train and Defend line.
    AQ planned for years and sent their A team to carry out the attacks, and on Flight 93 they were thwarted by a pick-up team made up of United Frequent Fliers. Many people look at 9/11 and wonder how we can stop an enemy like that. I look at FL93 and wonder, "How can we lose?". -- FromMyColdDeadHand

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    What do you mean by "No it's not?" A hollow point has always had penetration issues. That's why ballistic gel was created in the first place by FBI ballistics experts. The original Winchester Silvertip penetrated about 9 to 10 inches in gel after it failed them in the 1986 Miami Shootout. Advancements in hollow point technology have brought the average penetration depth up to about 13 inches. The FBI hasn't stopped there. They still want more penetration. That's why they selected Winchester Train and Defend for .40 S&W that penetrates about 15 inches and still are on the prowl for 9mm ammo that penetrates about the same.

    You are correct thought that it is still unvetted. We will see how it does after tests are conducted.
    I see what you’re saying now, my point was that failure to expand is a failure as well. I originally read your post as “lack of penetration is the only issue”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    I see what you’re saying now, my point was that failure to expand is a failure as well. I originally read your post as “lack of penetration is the only issue”.
    A balance between expansion and penetration is optimal (duh!). I do believe the HST's penetrate adequately and expand very well. By adequate I mean at least 16", which they do (well the 9mm 147gr +P's I like do anyway). Expansion, from things I've read, should be at least 1.5x bullet diameter. For the aforementioned 147gr +P HST's they usually average around .60 caliber expansion in denim-covered gel, which slightly exceeds the 1.5x minimum. So win-win in my book!
    Last edited by ABNAK; 03-10-18 at 18:11.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggammell View Post
    You got a source on this? Yes, Winchester was awarded a contract but nowhere do they tout it as the Train and Defend line.
    I saw it in these articles for whatever it's worth. No official source though.

    https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide...duty-training/

    https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/01/06/fbi-selects-winchester-ammo-duty-training-purposes/
    Last edited by wtm75; 03-11-18 at 08:54.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    I saw it in these articles for whatever it's worth. No official source though.

    https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide...duty-training/

    https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/0...ning-purposes/
    Saw the same. It’s just a regurgitated press release most word for word. I highly doubt the FBI is getting Train and defned when they made a Ranger Bonded for the FBI.
    AQ planned for years and sent their A team to carry out the attacks, and on Flight 93 they were thwarted by a pick-up team made up of United Frequent Fliers. Many people look at 9/11 and wonder how we can stop an enemy like that. I look at FL93 and wonder, "How can we lose?". -- FromMyColdDeadHand

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtm75 View Post
    Advancements in hollow point technology have brought the average penetration depth up to about 13 inches. The FBI hasn't stopped there. They still want more penetration. That's why they selected Winchester Train and Defend for .40 S&W that penetrates about 15 inches and still are on the prowl for 9mm ammo that penetrates about the same.
    .
    There are numerous off the shelf loads that meet these performance standards, such as HST, Gold Dot, Ranger Bonded, Ranger T, Winchester Defend. Ranger T 147 penetrates consistently around the 16” mark. The idea that there is a penetration capability gap that needs to be filled is simply false.

    Hornady +P offerings do OK if you like lots of penetration.

    I haven’t seen any independent tests of this new round yet. Only regurgitated press releases. This new round will appeal to those that are succeptible to marketing, while data-centric types will gravitate to the aforementioned loads, which already are proven to do exactly what Hydra-shok Deep claims to do. Unless of course, independent testing shows it to be better than whats already out there, or at least equal with a competitive price.

    Paging users @Tokarev @AndrewWiggin
    Last edited by 1168; 03-11-18 at 10:20. Reason: Content

  7. #27
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    I'm today's barrier rich environment, hollow points aren't penetrating what they do in bare gel or gel with 4 layers of denim or heavy clothing.

    Check out this video. Watch how the HST fragmented when going through slightly frozen meat. It could be a fluke though since only 1 round was tested. Depending on the barrier, some hollow points don't penetrate enough.

    Last edited by wtm75; 03-11-18 at 10:47.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    Paging users @Tokarev @AndrewWiggin
    I'd like to give this stuff a try but haven't seen any for sale yet. There's a shop not too far down the road that stocks a pretty good supply of self defense ammo. I've been checking with them regularly. As soon as they get some in I'll get a box to try.

    In the meantime:

    https://youtu.be/XcJJaga_nYw

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
    “The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

  9. #29
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    Oh imagine that a bullet that wasn't designed to be shot through 4 2x4's, a slap of "slightly frozen meat" into ballistic gel doesn't penetrate "enough".

    This is an absurd test.

    What are you gonna do with that Underwood round when you don't have to shoot through an entire Home Depot and the round zings through 2 people behind the target? Sometimes there is such a thing as too much penetration.
    AQ planned for years and sent their A team to carry out the attacks, and on Flight 93 they were thwarted by a pick-up team made up of United Frequent Fliers. Many people look at 9/11 and wonder how we can stop an enemy like that. I look at FL93 and wonder, "How can we lose?". -- FromMyColdDeadHand

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggammell View Post
    Oh imagine that a bullet that wasn't designed to be shot through 4 2x4's, a slap of "slightly frozen meat" into ballistic gel doesn't penetrate "enough".

    This is an absurd test.

    What are you gonna do with that Underwood round when you don't have to shoot through an entire Home Depot and the round zings through 2 people behind the target? Sometimes there is such a thing as too much penetration.
    It was just through the meat. He didn't shoot through 4 2x4's. Those are brackets to hold other barriers in other tests.

    Other barriers are much harder than that. Also, overpenetration is a myth. Nobody worried about overpenetration before hollow points were invented and nobody now worries about overpenetration when using a shotgun or rifle. You are supposed to know what beyond your target because even if using a hollow point, a miss which is very common is an overpenetrator.
    Last edited by wtm75; 03-11-18 at 12:14.

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