“Can Venezuela Be Saved?” great NYT article

[Honu]

Venezuela is a no win for our country as it currently is. There is no saving it. The Russians and or Chinese will become overlords to the current dictatorship via loans and obligations and supplying "advisors" as the country implodes. Direct intervention by the US would rile the populace as they have been trained for years that the US wants to invade their country. Us supplying arms and aid to a resistance against an overt Russian/Chinese backed dictatorship is working so well in Syria, right? [/sarcasm] We have lost our nerve to do the right thing early enough on to be effective. We wait until it is hopeless and then wring our hands.

The only way to win would be to do what the Russkies and Chinese are doing but do it bigger: buy the country and the dictatorship and have them manage it as a puppet state. But instead we will more likely follow their example of how to enslave a populace (our own) through economic attrition over decades.

ditto

China and Russia will strip it of every resource it has and leave the people not much better


sadly if we step in we will be accused of conquering it and the dictator Trump is worse ?
if Russia or China take over it will be OH they are saviors

we cant win in the worlds eye anymore

I hear many say this is our fault already on the left yeah our fault and minorities here have it much worse

[R6436]

ditto

China and Russia will strip it of every resource it has and leave the people not much better


sadly if we step in we will be accused of conquering it and the dictator Trump is worse ?
if Russia or China take over it will be OH they are saviors

we cant win in the worlds eye anymore

I hear many say this is our fault already on the left yeah our fault and minorities here have it much worse

Venezuela's current condition I don't blame us for, but given our current condition I don't think us getting involved at the moment would be good for anyone. IMO we need to get our own house in order before we initiate intervening in yet another country. Overall I find it a conflicting situation. China and Russia stepping in I'd say is bad, primarily for the reasons you listed. Us stepping in, while there is a possibility of it starting out well, I can't see ending well for anyone involved. I submit Korea, Vietnam, Syria, Libya, Cuba, the Philippines, Iraq, Iran, Panama, and Afghanistan as just a few examples. With the powers that be as they currently are, I could see resources still being stripped by corporations if we stepped in.

While I cannot think of any solutions at this time, I feel the current situation for Venezuela is a no-win situation for the populace. If there was a proposal presented that involved the citizens of Venezuela retaking their country with very limited indirect participation from the US, I would be open to listening to it.

[WillBrink]

Venezuela's current condition I don't blame us for, but given our current condition I don't think us getting involved at the moment would be good for anyone. IMO we need to get our own house in order before we initiate intervening in yet another country. Overall I find it a conflicting situation. China and Russia stepping in I'd say is bad, primarily for the reasons you listed. Us stepping in, while there is a possibility of it starting out well, I can't see ending well for anyone involved. I submit Korea, Vietnam, Syria, Libya, Cuba, the Philippines, Iraq, Iran, Panama, and Afghanistan as just a few examples. With the powers that be as they currently are, I could see resources still being stripped by corporations if we stepped in.

While I cannot think of any solutions at this time, I feel the current situation for Venezuela is a no-win situation for the populace. If there was a proposal presented that involved the citizens of Venezuela retaking their country with very limited indirect participation from the US, I would be open to listening to it.

Panama was a success and has become the regional powerhouse post US invasion. Vast majority of Panamanians, especially those old enough to remember what it was like pre invasion, supported it and still do. Currently responding from my condo in Panama...Though not an invasion, US assistance in Colombia has been a major success, which gets little to no attention. We have had some successes, but on the balance, I agree, military intervention not the answer and tough to justify. Beating the Russians/Chinese at their own game via supporting a viable alternative candidate/group (article linked discusses one possibility) and such, may be the only thing we can do, but we do have plenty at stake and a total melt down that destabilizes the region, and even possibly ends up with a mil presence from China or Russia, would be a direct threat to national security and interests. Far more so than Syria, and we don't even need their oil anymore as our excuse/reason to give a chit what goes on in that region. This is our own backyard. I too have no idea what the "right" answer is on this one, but I think it deserves far more of a focus than it's getting and that could prove to be very costly. I think a whole new national policy toward the ME is required at this point, but that's another issue.

[R6436]

Panama was a success and has become the regional powerhouse post US invasion. Vast majority of Panamanians, especially those old enough to remember what it was like pre invasion, supported it and still do. Currently responding from my condo in Panama...Though not an invasion, US assistance in Colombia has been a major success, which gets little to no attention. We have had some successes, but on the balance, I agree, military intervention not the answer and tough to justify. Beating the Russians/Chinese at their own game via supporting a viable alternative candidate/group (article linked discusses one possibility) and such, may be the only thing we can do, but we do have plenty at stake and a total melt down that destabilizes the region, and even possibly ends up with a mil presence from China or Russia, would be a direct threat to national security and interests. Far more so than Syria, and we don't even need their oil anymore as our excuse/reason to give a chit what goes on in that region. This is our own backyard. I too have no idea what the "right" answer is on this one, but I think it deserves far more of a focus than it's getting and that could prove to be very costly. I think a whole new national policy toward the ME is required at this point, but that's another issue.

I honestly thank you for educating me on Panama. It has been a number of years since I've read anything on that situation and IIRC it was mostly brought up as an example of us helping someone get into power and then go back a decade or more later to remove them. Once again, I thank you for correcting me with updated first hand information.

I agree with you that the situation needs more focus and awareness than it is getting. If I had to take a guess, I would suggest that the top levels of media do not want to bring attention to a current example of the policies they seem to support not working as they claim they would. As you pointed out, and I hadn't considered, this is our "backyard". A mil presence from China or Russia would be a bad thing in my view.

If I had a viable option/answer, I'd be more than happy to submit it.

[grnamin]

...The Russians and or Chinese will become overlords to the current dictatorship via loans and obligations and supplying "advisors" as the country implodes...

Makes me wonder if the implosion wasn't orchestrated by either the Russians or Chinese all along in order to gain a foothold or several footholds in the Americas. My same thoughts for what's going on here in the US.

[WillBrink]

I honestly thank you for educating me on Panama. It has been a number of years since I've read anything on that situation and IIRC it was mostly brought up as an example of us helping someone get into power and then go back a decade or more later to remove them. Once again, I thank you for correcting me with updated first hand information.

Some intel of interest:

http://www.americasquarterly.org/con...bout-economics

Ranked happiest country on earth several times, above that of the usual Nordic countries, yet did you hear that in the news? Does not fit the narrative...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/sh...ertake-denmark

Two years is a row, but may have dropped since then. Economy has cooled off a bit, but it's usually in the top ranking of "happiness" what ever that really is

Colombia, due to our intervention and assistance is doing really well too, and all sorts of people moving there. Hear about that in the media? Nope...

I agree with you that the situation needs more focus and awareness than it is getting. If I had to take a guess, I would suggest that the top levels of media do not want to bring attention to a current example of the policies they seem to support not working as they claim they would. As you pointed out, and I hadn't considered, this is our "backyard". A mil presence from China or Russia would be a bad thing in my view.

Some may or may not agree it's our "back yard" but compared to where we seem to be focusing, and arming "moderate rebels" and such, making existing mess into total FUBAR, it's our back yard. Not directed at you, but many 'Muricans are totally oblivious to what takes place south of them, and consider everything below TX as Mexico more or less.

If I had a viable option/answer, I'd be more than happy to submit it.

China, Russia, and Iran, are all over that country. Let that sink in. That's Iranians operating on American soil, and we don't have a legit national interest in that? We sure as hell do:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/23/...ked-terrorism/

Unlike Cuba, we didn't cause that one, but deal with it we must, or deal with it later to a much more expensive cost now doubt.

[MountainRaven]

Venezuela is friendly with virtually every country that's remotely hostile to the US and almost every country that's hostile to the US is friendly with Venezuela.

It may be nothing more than a stick in the eye, but it's still a stick in the eye. Especially given how much emphasis American policy makers - especially Republican policy makers - like to put on the Monroe Doctrine.

[Honu]

Venezuela's current condition I don't blame us for, but given our current condition I don't think us getting involved at the moment would be good for anyone. IMO we need to get our own house in order before we initiate intervening in yet another country. Overall I find it a conflicting situation. China and Russia stepping in I'd say is bad, primarily for the reasons you listed. Us stepping in, while there is a possibility of it starting out well, I can't see ending well for anyone involved. I submit Korea, Vietnam, Syria, Libya, Cuba, the Philippines, Iraq, Iran, Panama, and Afghanistan as just a few examples. With the powers that be as they currently are, I could see resources still being stripped by corporations if we stepped in.

While I cannot think of any solutions at this time, I feel the current situation for Venezuela is a no-win situation for the populace. If there was a proposal presented that involved the citizens of Venezuela retaking their country with very limited indirect participation from the US, I would be open to listening to it.

I say look at Puerto Rico today and what is happening and it has been a territory we have in most all cases a good history of for a long time (over 100 years) its physical space location allow them to be on their own with BVI close etc.. but IMHO its still a drain on us and a mess and we get nothing back for our country ! the people are great of course and yeah their are many that are horrid but we have that here
I have a lot in common with many from being a island guy as islanders are just different people than mainlanders
so I say its time they go out on their own they will still be friends and we have good relationships with and we help them etc..
they are friends mainly to say we have good history not perfect but good



but Valenzuela ? Venezuela for the most part hates us yeah that is like trying to buy a condo on the 7th floor of a slum and think if you fix it up things will be OK
sadly for the most part and I could be wrong the majority of them are not PRO US to begin with like the slum why go in ?

[Honu]

Panama was a success and has become the regional powerhouse post US invasion. Vast majority of Panamanians, especially those old enough to remember what it was like pre invasion, supported it and still do. Currently responding from my condo in Panama...Though not an invasion, US assistance in Colombia has been a major success, which gets little to no attention. We have had some successes, but on the balance, I agree, military intervention not the answer and tough to justify. Beating the Russians/Chinese at their own game via supporting a viable alternative candidate/group (article linked discusses one possibility) and such, may be the only thing we can do, but we do have plenty at stake and a total melt down that destabilizes the region, and even possibly ends up with a mil presence from China or Russia, would be a direct threat to national security and interests. Far more so than Syria, and we don't even need their oil anymore as our excuse/reason to give a chit what goes on in that region. This is our own backyard. I too have no idea what the "right" answer is on this one, but I think it deserves far more of a focus than it's getting and that could prove to be very costly. I think a whole new national policy toward the ME is required at this point, but that's another issue.

was curious what your thought was on this since ya have experience their

I do think Panama history is more like Puerto Rico I said above and the history and past is mixed but good over all


Honduras and other countries could have been more like Costa Rica but it went the other way which is sad cause that whole area is so so so beautiful and has so much natural resource and beauty to make huge money with tourism

I guess why and how did Costa Rica do it and how did Panama do it and will other places in Central and South America be able to do what they have done ?

I do think Venezuela is to far gone like Brazil they are what they are and no helping it

[flenna]

I think we ought to send a large contingent of the March 14th walk out SJWs who want to abridge our Constitutional rights to Venezuela to see the kind of paradise they are marching for. Heck, I would even donate to a fund to send them there. They may be disappointed, though, when they find out there are no Tide pods there for them to eat.