“Can Venezuela Be Saved?” great NYT article

[WillBrink]

was curious what your thought was on this since ya have experience their

I do think Panama history is more like Puerto Rico I said above and the history and past is mixed but good over all


Honduras and other countries could have been more like Costa Rica but it went the other way which is sad cause that whole area is so so so beautiful and has so much natural resource and beauty to make huge money with tourism

I guess why and how did Costa Rica do it and how did Panama do it and will other places in Central and South America be able to do what they have done ?

I do think Venezuela is to far gone like Brazil they are what they are and no helping it

Not sure what the Q is there. Countries that have at least attempted to follow some free market concepts, play nice with the US, genuinely make the attempt to reduce corruption, etc, seem to head in a generally positive direction with obvious factors unique to the country (culture, history, etc.) that speed up/slow down the process. Those who drift in other directions tend to be chit holes. I don't see many going to Cost Rica these days. It was the "in" place to go a while ago. All of them have a long way to go but in some ways, kinda the charm of it too. There's places with some risk worth checking out for sure, and there's places I would not go short of a SEAL team. I think Colombia is on the verge of being the place to go, and is already getting some leaving Panama to go there due to low costs of living and some very nice spots that are pretty safe. I do think you can generally ignore what the media reports and only some real digging, research, asking around, etc will get real answers. You'd think Mexico a war zone from the media, but large parts of it are very nice and safe and I know people who have no issues at all.

Just like Euro types that are convinced the US is a war zone yet most of us never see or experience any of as it's located in areas we all know not to go to. It's a lot like that.

[Averageman]

So how do you go about "Fixing" something that's gone this bad?
We have enough of our own issues, why take on more?

[pinzgauer]

Venezuela is friendly with virtually every country that's remotely hostile to the US and almost every country that's hostile to the US is friendly with Venezuela.

It may be nothing more than a stick in the eye, but it's still a stick in the eye. Especially given how much emphasis American policy makers - especially Republican policy makers - like to put on the Monroe Doctrine.

I often jokingly advocate for a modern Monroe doctrine. Just seems stupid to me to nation build on the other side of the globe while letting Cuba, Venezuela, and Mexico turn in problems. With much of Central America close behind.

I would have graduated tax incentives/penalties for using domestic (tax break), regional prosperity sphere (neutral), and offshore (tax disadvantage/tarif) for materials and especially labor.

Guest labor policies for friendly pro-us countries who maintain rule of law and Human rights. Similar to Europe with some Eastern euro countries in the 90s.

[pinzgauer]

Well, now that PR has been mentioned, I guess Venezuela is a lost cause. If we can't fix PR, there is no hope for others.

CR used to be the hot place to "nearshore". my company spent millions moving US jobs there. Nearly all have moved back, largely due to unstable infrastructure and decreasing rule of law /property rights.

Venezuela used to be a great place... We had tickets to travel there in the 80s, was about to go. When my cousin in the airline industry told us it had just become unstable, could not count on the return flights being available.

Thus ended my bonefishing trip to Los roques

[Diamondback]

I often jokingly advocate for a modern Monroe doctrine. Just seems stupid to me to nation build on the other side of the globe while letting Cuba, Venezuela, and Mexico turn in problems. With much of Central America close behind.

I would have graduated tax incentives/penalties for using domestic (tax break), regional prosperity sphere (neutral), and offshore (tax disadvantage/tarif) for materials and especially labor.

Guest labor policies for friendly pro-us countries who maintain rule of law and Human rights.

And who help us repatriate their nationals when visas expire, unlike those Failed States and Turd Whirled Shitholes to our south. Other than that, good idea... and I'm not saying that just because of my own personal interests in the matter.

[R6436]

I think we ought to send a large contingent of the March 14th walk out SJWs who want to abridge our Constitutional rights to Venezuela to see the kind of paradise they are marching for. Heck, I would even donate to a fund to send them there. They may be disappointed, though, when they find out there are no Tide pods there for them to eat.

I would be open to this if we "forget" to tell them it is a one-way trip ;-)

I've noticed over the... decades, that it seems the people who advocate the most for war/military intervention, or in this case socialism, are the ones with little to zero "hands-on" experience with what they advocate. Not saying that is anyone here on the site, but most of the people I interact with IRL on a daily basis at work and in public fit the description.

[MountainRaven]

I think we ought to send a large contingent of the March 14th walk out SJWs who want to abridge our Constitutional rights to Venezuela to see the kind of paradise they are marching for. Heck, I would even donate to a fund to send them there. They may be disappointed, though, when they find out there are no Tide pods there for them to eat.

There are plenty of right-wing gun-grabbers, so I'm not certain if you would be sending the kids you think you'd be sending.

[Honu]

Not sure what the Q is there. Countries that have at least attempted to follow some free market concepts, play nice with the US, genuinely make the attempt to reduce corruption, etc, seem to head in a generally positive direction with obvious factors unique to the country (culture, history, etc.) that speed up/slow down the process. Those who drift in other directions tend to be chit holes. I don't see many going to Cost Rica these days. It was the "in" place to go a while ago. All of them have a long way to go but in some ways, kinda the charm of it too. There's places with some risk worth checking out for sure, and there's places I would not go short of a SEAL team. I think Colombia is on the verge of being the place to go, and is already getting some leaving Panama to go there due to low costs of living and some very nice spots that are pretty safe. I do think you can generally ignore what the media reports and only some real digging, research, asking around, etc will get real answers. You'd think Mexico a war zone from the media, but large parts of it are very nice and safe and I know people who have no issues at all.

Just like Euro types that are convinced the US is a war zone yet most of us never see or experience any of as it's located in areas we all know not to go to. It's a lot like that.

you answered what I was thinking was your thoughts he brought up Panama and you mentioned Columbia I know Columbia has gotten some better press but has bad areas but like the US no way would I live in many cities in this country
I have heard Columbia is on the rise quite a bit with many of the digital nomad types etc..

I thought Costa Rica still has folks going from what I have seen but its so bloody expensive now whats the point
so interesting to hear pinz say that about Costa Rica hmmmm


I know Ecuador is now going down as a place to go in last few years (yet was huge 10 years ago) so interesting about some leaving Panama had not heard that yet

when I was on Utila nobody was fishing bones or permit or tarpon by fly or any gear etc. my fly gear was seeing as odd and silly hahahahhahah but had fun
now some are doing a bit there near the old airport there was a good active but small flat
now even guanaja has nice fly fishing places/lodges I should have stayed and opened up a fishing service
nothing was on Guanaja then


funny how the bay islands are now but been there done that and its getting worse in many ways with more moving in the charm is gone and my friends from there say its a mess now

[Ned Christiansen]

I'm not sure what the right path is in Venezuela. Unfortunately all I know is what we should have done. Bush snubbed Chavez and Chavez's immature and unstable personality couldn't take it. From that point forward he did everything he could to vex the US. We should have brought him into the fold instead, so we could gently steer things in the right direction. Yes it may have turned into one of our classic "support the megalomaniac strongman, looking the other way on certain misbehaviors, so we can get the oil / sugar / bananas / et al". But I think Venezuela would be in much better shape today and we'd have been close enough to encourage positive change.

Now? The change has to come from the street and that's going to be really hard. There's a great lesson to be learned here (actually, re-re-re-re-re-learned) against letting shti like this get any kind of foothold in our own society.

Venezuelans have a long history of cherishing liberty. They've been pretty good in the past about running rascals out of office, but then allowing another rascal in.... kind of a sad cycle. This time they bought the crap for a little too long and let the regime get too strong. Oscar Perez was just what they needed...... darned shame he was found and murdered.

[WillBrink]

I'm not sure what the right path is in Venezuela. Unfortunately all I know is what we should have done. Bush snubbed Chavez and Chavez's immature and unstable personality couldn't take it. From that point forward he did everything he could to vex the US. We should have brought him into the fold instead, so we could gently steer things in the right direction. Yes it may have turned into one of our classic "support the megalomaniac strongman, looking the other way on certain misbehaviors, so we can get the oil / sugar / bananas / et al". But I think Venezuela would be in much better shape today and we'd have been close enough to encourage positive change.

Now? The change has to come from the street and that's going to be really hard. There's a great lesson to be learned here (actually, re-re-re-re-re-learned) against letting shti like this get any kind of foothold in our own society.

Venezuelans have a long history of cherishing liberty. They've been pretty good in the past about running rascals out of office, but then allowing another rascal in.... kind of a sad cycle. This time they bought the crap for a little too long and let the regime get too strong. Oscar Perez was just what they needed...... darned shame he was found and murdered.

Change the name to Castro, and history repeated itself. That's exactly what he did. No surprise, Castro was a hero of Chavez.