A funny thing happened on my way to the forum...

[TomMcC]

at least me stats are truth

they will just say call the police that is your protection then you get into the theory if guns were banned nobody would have guns so you would be safe and that is a argument

stats are real I prefer stats cause you can see them twist but sadly they do not believe them

Stats may be real, but ultimately the founders argued what they believed to be transcendent principles. As a caveat I don't agree with some of their natural law principles.

[Bubba FAL]

I no longer debate these fools.

I ask them if they are willing to kill me and my wife to get our guns, so far they have all said no of course not.

I respond by good then this is easy because I am willing to kill you and your wife to keep my guns. Have a good day.

This.

We have seen, time and again, what ensues when citizens are disarmed. Why would any thinking person surrender their arms?

[TomMcC]

But you don’t need to defend yourself with something that holds a thirty round clip. Other than that nugget I think he believes the government will protect him.

Then a talk about the nature of true liberty might be in order.

[Ed L.]

So if someone is that far down the crazy river, what might they tell the Cops?
I would imagine "He threatened to shoot me Officer and he has GUNS!"
Lawyers, bail, maybe CPS, no thanks. I will continue to avoid them.
This will be the next form of a SWATing, you wait and see.

This is exactly what I would be concerned with if you tell them something like "come try and get my guns and see what happens to you."

I would not get into anything you might personally do if anyone came to take your guns because there is no telling how they might twist what you said and report it to the police.

[26 Inf]

This.

The Left realizes that avoiding too much provocation and gradually changing societal norms until what's considered centrist 20 years from now is what everyone called batshit crazy 20 years ago, is the sure path to victory. They have everything in place. They've been foundation building since Alinsky and Cloward and Pivon in the 50's/60's. Our team has been grabbing each other's asses in the locker room and trying to reform to 'win the new, more modern (left-leaning) voter' since the 60's.

Our side doesn't have a strong ideological core, it's mainly made up of short-sighted opportunists. The left has a powerful ideological core that has gained enough power to threaten those within who don't stay in the bounds of leftist orthodoxy.

Aries144,

I've got to tell you, that same script could be used by the left to describe the right. What do you think the 1% and their lackeys have been doing for the last 30 years? Selling us down the river and feathering their own nests. Sure some trickles down to the next 39%, but that is not their goal, it is an unintended consequence.

Ultimately I think the decision that younger Americans will have to make is whose boot do they want on their throats, someone chanting 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs' or someone chanting 'free market, free market, tax cuts to benefit the wealthy.'

The thing both sides have in common is they give zero fvcks about us poor slobs in the middle, we are pawns in the game.

You are absolutely right, our side doesn't have a strong ideological core, it is indeed made up of short-sighted opportunists.

Instead of being all 'hey buddy, fvck you, I've got mine' how about if we all stood up and said 'hey buddy, I've got mine, how 'bout me helping you do a bit better' and help that poor guy not be quite as poor.

In my book that isn't Socialism, it is putting Christian values to work Monday through Saturday, instead of for an hour a day on Sunday. And, for those who aren't Christians, it would take the wind plumb out of the left's sails, but more importantly it would once again elevate America to truly the greatest Nation on Earth.

[MegademiC]

Aries144,

I've got to tell you, that same script could be used by the left to describe the right. What do you think the 1% and their lackeys have been doing for the last 30 years? Selling us down the river and feathering their own nests. Sure some trickles down to the next 39%, but that is not their goal, it is an unintended consequence.

Ultimately I think the decision that younger Americans will have to make is whose boot do they want on their throats, someone chanting 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs' or someone chanting 'free market, free market, tax cuts to benefit the wealthy.'

The thing both sides have in common is they give zero fvcks about us poor slobs in the middle, we are pawns in the game.

You are absolutely right, our side doesn't have a strong ideological core, it is indeed made up of short-sighted opportunists.

Instead of being all 'hey buddy, fvck you, I've got mine' how about if we all stood up and said 'hey buddy, I've got mine, how 'bout me helping you do a bit better' and help that poor guy not be quite as poor.

In my book that isn't Socialism, it is putting Christian values to work Monday through Saturday, instead of for an hour a day on Sunday. And, for those who aren't Christians, it would take the wind plumb out of the left's sails, but more importantly it would once again elevate America to truly the greatest Nation on Earth.

Thats not a left-right dilemma, thats cronyism.
The left is going full-tilt right now and pushing moderates to the right.
I feel its gotten even worse(better for us?) since the election- despite what MSM says.

[VARIABLE9]

So if someone is that far down the crazy river, what might they tell the Cops?
I would imagine "He threatened to shoot me Officer and he has GUNS!"
Lawyers, bail, maybe CPS, no thanks. I will continue to avoid them.
This will be the next form of a SWATing, you wait and see.

That’s a very good point. Even some Jews worked for the Nazis right? (e.g. Soros)

This.

We have seen, time and again, what ensues when citizens are disarmed. Why would any thinking person surrender their arms?

I don’t think there’s a lot of (rational, logical, clear or stable) thinking involved. I think it’s party line and driven by some strange emotional reaction (evidenced by the quick denigration from conversation to argument to [his] yelling [at me]).

This is exactly what I would be concerned with if you tell them something like "come try and get my guns and see what happens to you."

I would not get into anything you might personally do if anyone came to take your guns because there is no telling how they might twist what you said and report it to the police.

Valid concern, I have never taken this stance. These arguments are not all 2A. Range from Obama’s drone strike frequency, BLM versus Blue Lives, Chiraq, mass shooters, high capacity assault clips, Seth Rich, and everything in between. Today was just constitutional republic and BGC’s.

[Averageman]

Have you ever been driving to Church and get behind someone with one of those "When will Women have the same rights as Guns' bumper stickers, right next to a 'Coexist" bumper sticker right next to a "Vote Hillary" bumper sticker and they are driving horribly?
You know the type, cell phone to ear, as they eat some fast food, weaving, driving ten under because they are distracted, just a real PITA.
You finally get around them and find a space to park and when you look up that asshole driver is getting their kids out of the Prius and going to the same Church you do?
They don't get it, they simply are inside a delusional bubble of bubble gum Socialism.
Just avoid them like the plauge.
Because if you can self justify taking someone's gun, you can justify taking other properties they own and once you have nominalized someone that much it's just one more step to taking their life.
These nutbags are everywhere.

[MountainRaven]

Supporting abortion because it's the law is no different than the German people turning a blind eye when the Nazi's were conducting genocide. The ideology is the same. Remember these people have no problem murdering 50K babies per year. They would also murder grown children or even adults if that became law as well. Yet these very same people are now demanding that their political adversaries are disarmed. Just like in the last century- when these Commie Socialists murdered hundreds of millions of people.

That's a gross oversimplification.

The laws they want won't just disarm their political adversaries, it will disarm their political allies, too. And the laws they want won't disarm their political enemies in law enforcement or the military, either.

[SteyrAUG]

Instead of battling over stats, maybe you should start with first principles...does he believe that people have a fundamental right to self defense and, if so, what logically follows in regards to the tools of self defense.

I've always followed a similar logic train with "right to defense" as a "civil right." Just as you have the right to believe what you will, the right to express ideas and beliefs, the right to be free and secure in your persons, houses, papers and effect...you also have the right to defend your very existence and the lives of your loved ones.

Funny how very philosophical people sometimes cannot grasp that fundamental right to control your very life and defend it, but they worry about the art they create being protected.