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Thread: 7.5 vs. 10.5

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godallmighty View Post
    Anyone tried the Norma 55g lead tip? No problems of "fragmentation" this mommy will keep it all together ... and just will tear the sh*t out of your target!
    Fragmentation is a good thing here. It is the primary wound mechanism of a 5.56 round.

  2. #22
    It's a good thing in war, causes damage... but it might not cause as much hydrostatic chock as a round that mushrooms, causing a major primary cavity!
    Last edited by Godallmighty; 12-23-09 at 11:09.
    “The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ~ Albert Einstein 1879-1955
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godallmighty View Post
    It's a good thing in war, causes damage... but it might not cause as much stopping power as a round that mushrooms, causing a major primary cavity!
    Absolutely incorrect. Please take some time to read this subforum:

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

    The link brings you to a thread in the Terminal Ballistics forum which is an outstanding sub-forum here at M4Carbine that showcases much of the information put forth by Dr. G.K. Roberts.

    Dr. Roberts or DocGKR as he is known here who is one of the foremost terminal ballistics experts in the world.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godallmighty View Post
    It's a good thing in war, causes damage... but it might not cause as much hydrostatic chock as a round that mushrooms, causing a major primary cavity!
    Hydrostatic shock is a myth. One of our largest groups is the "human injury" group which researches the effects of shockwaves from blast and blunt impact. I have a mechanical engineers at my work who specialize in subsonic and supersonic shock wave propagation in fluids. He cringes at the term "hydrostatic shock".

    When a round fragments it transfers nearly 100% of it's kinetic energy to the target, also since it breaks up into many little pieces it also has the added bonus of causing massive internal trauma to organs and blood vessels.

  5. #25
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    I don't think you will find ammo that frags and has enough penetration out of a 7.5" barrel.

    You should be within the velocity that some controlled expansion bullets will expand and offer enough penetration.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by decodeddiesel View Post
    Hydrostatic shock is a myth. One of our largest groups is the "human injury" group which researches the effects of shockwaves from blast and blunt impact. I have a mechanical engineers at my work who specialize in subsonic and supersonic shock wave propagation in fluids. He cringes at the term "hydrostatic shock".

    When a round fragments it transfers nearly 100% of it's kinetic energy to the target, also since it breaks up into many little pieces it also has the added bonus of causing massive internal trauma to organs and blood vessels.
    Yeah, might work on a rifle, or even carbine at "reasonable" distance, (100m+) I agree!

    But the DoD issued round was not designed for targets close, neither to be a low velocity round (as fired from a SBR)! The 5.56 was not designed for close range, it was designed for "Average Battle Distance".

    If you ever fired 3 rounds into a target on close range and the guy runs away, you know that the gun they gave you is crap (or the round at least)! Standard FMJ sucks on close rage!

    Hydrostatic chock is not a myth dude! its called SECONDARY CAVITY in oldschool! language and... books are nice, but reality teaches you one thing or two! Whether it's logic or not!
    Last edited by Godallmighty; 12-23-09 at 13:38.
    “The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ~ Albert Einstein 1879-1955
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  7. #27
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    Jesus H. Christ, here we go again.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godallmighty View Post
    Yeah, might work on a rifle, or even carbine at "reasonable" distance, (100m+) I agree!

    But the DoD issued round was not designed for targets close, neither to be a low velocity round (as fired from a SBR)! The 5.56 was not designed for close range, it was designed for "Average Battle Distance".

    If you ever fired 3 rounds into a target on close range and the guy runs away, you know that the gun they gave you is crap (or the round at least)! Standard FMJ sucks on close rage!

    Hydrostatic chock is not a myth dude! its called SECONDARY CAVITY in oldschool! language and... books are nice, but reality teaches you one thing or two! Whether it's logic or not!
    Actually, yes, I have fired multiple rounds into a human being at close range. It was M855, it fragmented and the guy dropped like a sack of shit.

    ETA: I have also seen the effects from close and long range hits with Mk. 262 Mod. , M855 and M856, M882 (9mm), M80, and from M43 7.62x39 and what the hell ever type of 7.62x54R my friend got hit in the head with. It's all an ugly UGLY thing but the close range torso hits with Mk. 262 from a 14.5" M4 were most impressive.

    I spent 10 years in the Army as an Infantry man and 2 tours in Iraq with the 502. I know a thing or two about the "real world" thank you.

    You are absolutely 100% incorrect about hydrostatic shock, it is a misnomer at best and essentially a made up term. Below is what the Ph. D Mechanical Engineer who is in charge of our batttlefield injury study has to say about hydrostatic shock:

    hydrostatic - relating to fluids that are NOT IN MOTION

    shock wave - a pressure wave traveling FASTER than the speed of sound

    When a bullet impacts a target, a pressure wave is applied, but unless it is traveling faster than 5,052 ft/s (sonic speed in salt water), it will not cause a shock wave in tissue; it is simply a strong pressure wave. The tissue is obviously in motion, as evidenced in many videos, so it is not hydrostatic. Therefore, there is no such thing as true hydrostatic shock. There is hydraulic shock, but only with bullets impacting at greater than 5,052 ft/s. What we normally see is simply a very strong pressure wave that creates tissue damage when the psi level exceeds the natural strength of tissue (widely varied, but you could estimate 500 psi).
    I thought of some additional stuff too. Temporary wound cavities are areas where the tissue strength has been exceeded far enough to cause tearing and destruction. These can be just a lethal as permanent wound cavities if they are located properly, BUT in the case of permanent, the tissue has actually been REMOVED by the momentum of the projectile, so bleed-out can occur more rapidly if the tissue damage isn't enough to kill.
    Please follow the link I posted earlier and read the information in that forum. It will open your eyes to the world of terminal ballistics.
    Last edited by decodeddiesel; 12-23-09 at 23:25.

  9. #29
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    Hydrostatic wounding! I needed a laugh. What about "stopping power?"

    7.5 v. 10.5? Is there even an issue here? Not even 10.5. 11.5 all the way. Big diff. in several areas that matter.

    DD- You forgot to mention DocGkr's seminal ballistics work. I guess it was too many close mortar and tank rounds. Back blast is a bitch. Hope the wife and daughter are well.
    Last edited by 6933; 12-23-09 at 20:37. Reason: grammar

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6933 View Post
    DD- You forgot to mention DocGkr's seminal ballistics work. I guess it was too many close mortar and tank rounds. Back blast is a bitch. Hope the wife and daughter are well.
    I must be slipping.

    Wife and daughter are doing great, little girl is ready for her first Christmas.

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