Toronto Van Attack (4/23/18)

[C-grunt]

Per the GF, one of their big subway stations is near that intersection--Target Rich Environment for a wannabe Mass Killer.

Stupid question: what load for Minivan Maniac out of a 10.3? Assuming M995 Black Tip is unavailable and you're stuck with Civvy Legal...

Punching through windshield or door... Really any good bonded soft point like Gold Dot or Fusion or a good solid like a TSX or GMX.

From my experience even the lowly M855 does decent through a windshield.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Stupid question: what load for Minivan Maniac out of a 10.3? Assuming M995 Black Tip is unavailable and you're stuck with Civvy Legal...

But realistically most of us won't have a SBR on us when this kind of thing happens. Better question is what handgun ammo will be useful post-windshield. I'm betting any US-made bonded JHP, like Speer Gold Dot for one example, but will defer to experts.

[flenna]

They have the driver in custody but haven't released a name or motive yet. But the mayor of Toronto said:

"This is a time when this community should come together," Toronto Mayor John Tory said at an afternoon press conference. "I hope that we will, as a city, remind ourselves of the fact that we are admired around the world for being inclusive and for being accepting and understanding and considerate."

So it looks like we know where this is headed.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04...-cops-say.html

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I don't see the actual source on MSNBC. I find it odd that the source is named, rather than some generic source. Fake news? Only referred to on media I'm unfamiliar with.

Guys name is Armenian, for what that is worth.

Bratton's twitter feed has nothing about it... Nothing on MSNBC.

[SomeOtherGuy]

never mind

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Was the YouTube shooter Armenian too?

[Sam]

Was the YouTube shooter Armenian too?

Youtube shooter was Iranian.

[Coal Dragger]

Gun fire would bring it to an end.

I know, from first hand knowledge twice.

Maybe not apples to apples with your experience, but I can anecdotally confirm that in then one instance I was involved in, that accurate rifle fire does tend to be effective when you need to stop a vehicle.

[Honu]

I do like 308 rounds against cars more than 223 rounds

[MountainRaven]

Breach-Bang-Clear article from summer last year about dealing with/surviving vehicle ramming attacks (VRAs): Link.

And one about how this isn't going to slow down or stop any time soon (even Israel isn't immune): Link.

But realistically most of us won't have a SBR on us when this kind of thing happens. Better question is what handgun ammo will be useful post-windshield. I'm betting any US-made bonded JHP, like Speer Gold Dot for one example, but will defer to experts.

From the latter article:

Last, it is almost impossible to quickly stop a vehicle ramming attack. A jihadist in a big truck is basically sitting in a bullet-resistant weapon. It’s not bulletproof, but it’ll provide a lot of protection from pistols, which are the weapons most likely to show up first. Yes, counterterrorist cops in Europe have long guns and many American patrol officers have carbines in their cars, but the chances of someone having a long gun out and ready when a VRA occurs hover between zero and none. If the attack happens in free America, several citizens in the area will likely be armed with concealed pistols, but fire from a pistol against a fast-moving vehicle probably won’t work and could hit bystanders. If the attack happens in NY, California or Europe, I’d be willing to bet about seven million dollars that NOBODY will have a gun, and nobody with a gun will arrive until the attack has gone on for some time. Either way, the chances of Joe Regular Guy stopping the attack, armed or not, aren’t good.

Watch this video, taken the night of the attack in Nice, France. The attack begins at about 00:18.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCLtKPxYWYo

If you were armed, could you have stopped that truck? If so, how? You could stand directly in front of it and mag dump into the windshield in front of the driver — shooting at it as it passes will likely have no effect, especially since you’d be shooting upward through the door. But you’d have only seconds to recognize the threat, draw, engage and get the hell out of the way. What’s the likelihood you’d be able to do all that and get a round through the windshield at the right spot, and have that round not lose so much mass and velocity as it goes through the windshield that it becomes ineffective? Maybe that’s not a one-in-a-billion shot, and maybe your response is “So you’re saying there’s a chance,” but I don’t have any realistic expectation that a concealed carrier could take out a truck like that.

There's more to it than that. But I'm not sure a discussion about handgun ammunition selection to stop a VRA is going to be anything but academic.